Evidence of meeting #49 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was request.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:40 a.m.
Director, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
For which request? Professor Attaran's?
Professor Attaran made a request for the human rights reports, and we would have got the records some time in March.
9:40 a.m.
Director, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I have no idea. I'll have to check the records.
9:40 a.m.
Director, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
No, I haven't—
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
You'll have to come back with the records. This really, really fries me, frankly. Two weeks you had to prepare these records. Where are they? What's the matter with you people? For crying out loud, were we not clear? This is ridiculous.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel
Mr. Martin, the question was a date, and the witness undertook to provide you with the date.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
The exact date that the office of primary interest told you that such documents existed. I want that date delivered to me by the end of today.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel
First of all, it won't be delivered to you. It will be delivered to the committee, and we'll ask that it be delivered ex-post-haste.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
But I need to know that because later.... I believe I know the date, and I also believe that later on that same month you told another applicant that no such documents existed.
9:40 a.m.
Director, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Can we intervene?
First of all, yes, we will send to the committee the information that you're seeking.
Madame Lavallée has also requested a chronology, if I recall correctly, so that will be provided to the committee.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel
That would a chronology of both the Esau request and the Attaran request, because sometimes people are mixing up the facts of the two cases, and it would be very helpful if we had the chronology of both cases and specifically what was asked for and what the answers were.
We've already been advised by Mr. Esau that he'll provide us with his documentation, but we don't yet have it. So of course you, naturally, would have copies of his documentation in your file, as well as your responses, and they would all have dates, would they not? And you'll provide those and the chronology for both. Correct?
9:40 a.m.
Director, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Yes.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Let me simply say that the subsection 15(1) exemption is supposed to be a national security exemption, not a national government embarrassment exemption. It seems to me that these paragraphs were exempted so as not to embarrass the ministers who were standing up and giving false information in the House of Commons month after month after month. That's the conclusion we're rapidly coming to.
Did anybody tell you to come here without those files?
9:40 a.m.
Director, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
I'm just wondering what thought process would go through the mind of a senior bureaucrat when they're appearing before a House of Commons standing committee about a very specific narrow question, the access to information requests of two individuals. Why in God's name would you not bring those files with you?
9:45 a.m.
Director, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I'll tell you two things.
First of all, it's absolutely unusual for an ATIP coordinator to come into a public forum to speak about specific ATIP requests. These are very protected, and it is the confidentiality that I'm very concerned with. The fact that Mr. Esau and Mr. Attaran have come to this committee and conveyed to you that they had made requests makes me a little bit more at ease in talking about these requests.
I usually speak frankly and openly with the Office of the Information Commissioner with these files, and as I said, I hope you understand that it is quite unusual for me to be in such a public forum to talk about very private--
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
It's irrelevant to the question I asked you.
Why would you not bring the files in question? I don't care if it's unusual or not. It's unusual for us to have to drag senior bureaucrats before this committee.
9:45 a.m.
Director, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I'm concerned with the confidentiality.
The other point I need to make is that there is an ongoing investigation with one of these files, and I'm cooperating fully with the Office of the Information Commissioner to conduct its business.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
With all due respect, the Information Commissioner answers to this committee. We have primacy over this investigation, frankly. You could at least have those documents with you and look to the appropriate page and say, “I can't give you this date because of some other reason.” But you didn't even bring the files with you. I think that shows some disrespect for the work that we're doing here, frankly.
I'm extremely disappointed.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel
Mr. Martin, I'm afraid you're out of time.
Ms. Sabourin, I must say that it would have been helpful if you had brought your files, whether you're concerned with confidentiality or not. It's not that you would have had to reveal your files necessarily; it's that the files would have been there for you to be able to answer specific questions about dates and names without having to undertake to get back to us. It may be necessary for you to come back here a second time in a process that you acknowledge to be very unusual and no doubt uncomfortable, and we wouldn't want to put you through that a second time.
So it is inappropriate that you did not bring your files with you. But hey, those things happen, and we'll do the best we can. It may be necessary for you to come back and it may be necessary for you to bring your files at that time, depending on what kinds of answers you give us in writing to the questions that you cannot answer today.
We'll go to Mr. Reid, please.