Evidence of meeting #5 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbyist.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel
Are there any other questions that anyone would like to ask up to now? That doesn't mean you can't go back later.
Thank you, Mr. Nelson. You can carry on.
3:55 p.m.
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
I will continue, but that's an important thing to clarify. Thank you for that question. The office can't operate unless you've got that independence.
Page 7 in the deck concerns the registrar of lobbyists. This is what the registrar does. Essentially, we run a registry. When we get interviewed by the press sometimes, the questions are all about how many investigations and what kind of enforcement we're doing. The bulk of our work is running a registry and running it on the Internet. We establish and maintain a registry. We issue advisory opinions and interpretation bulletins regarding various parts of the act. We develop the lobbyists code of conduct, which describes how lobbyists are to behave. We enforce the act and report to Parliament on the act and the code of conduct and on investigations carried out. I'll say a little bit about that a little later.
Page 8 looks at the act itself. There are four points that I think are terribly important. The preamble to the act doesn't get a lot of attention, but it's what a lot of the act is about, namely that free and open access to government is an important matter of public interest and that lobbying public office holders is a legitimate activity. However--it doesn't say “however”, but that's what it reads--it's desirable that public office holders and the general public know who is lobbying and know some information about them. Finally, there is what I consider a point about balance, which is that the system for registration of paid lobbyists--and that's not just the online system, it's the set of rules, and it's how I should behave--should not impede free and open access to government. In other words, the rules shouldn't be so complicated and so heavy, and the registration itself shouldn't be so difficult that they actually have an effect counter to what you're trying to achieve.
Sometimes when I give a presentation like this, and I talk about lobbying, it turns out that lobbying is not necessarily what most of us think it might be. Lobbying, under the act, is communicating--that's why I have these words on page 9 underlined--it's communicating, whether verbally, by e-mail, or in any other way, with a public office holder. And we're all public office holders in this room. It's an incredibly broad definition. It can be with members of the armed forces, members of the RCMP, or with any public servant. There are certain crown corporations that are excluded from that, but it's a very broad definition. And it's communicating for payment--another very important trigger, because volunteer lobbying isn't registerable. If I want to get a group of people together on my street and hammer at the Minister of Heritage Canada to try to get a grant for a Veterans Day parade or some other kind of parade, that's not a registerable activity if nobody is paying me for it, but it is lobbying. I try often not to talk about lobbying so much as about registerable activities under the act. And it's doing those things in respect of this list, which is right out of the act, and which essentially deals with changes to the status quo, decisions about legislation, decisions about policy, that sort of thing.
The final bullet is very important, for consultant lobbyists only, and concerns the act of arranging a meeting. If you hire somebody just to get you into someone's office because you happen to know someone or know how to do it, that is a registerable activity for consultant lobbyists.
There are certain exemptions under the act. Employees and elected members of certain governments--for instance municipal employees of the City of Toronto, and those of the provinces or territories--don't have to register in order to talk to public office holders. Members of certain aboriginal councils and institutions don't have to register. There are a number of other small exemptions concerning some international organizations, for example. There are certain communications that are exempt. Those people who come to talk to you at this committee are not required to register because it's so public. If you have communications with respect to enforcement or interpretation or application of an act, and you're not really trying to change the act, but rather you're trying to figure out what it means to you, that's not registerable. Simple requests for information--How do I fill out this form? How do I go about doing this?--are not registerable.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON
I'm curious about somebody who's hired by a firm and who would have access. Would he qualify as a lobbyist, or does he slip under that as well? Let's say a law firm were to hire somebody who had past experience in government office.
4 p.m.
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
Sure. If they're hiring that person to talk on their behalf to a public office holder about any of these subjects--changing legislation, changing a policy--and they're paying that person, then that person needs to register as a consultant lobbyist.
When we go on to the next section--and I'll turn to Pierre to explain--we'll see that there are different types of lobbyists. When I do this presentation, sometimes even for departmental management committees there is one of those “ah-ha” moments, because we all think of lobbyists as individual consultants, whereas there are in fact three different types of lobbyists. That's really important to understand under the act.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON
So we'll address that a little later. There are a few, possibly, that fall into a different category. Is that what you're talking about?
4 p.m.
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
Absolutely. There are three different types.
I am going to ask Pierre to explain the types of lobbyists and the registry.
4 p.m.
Pierre Ricard-Desjardins Director of Operations, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
As Mr. Nelson was saying, there are three types of lobbyists. There is a very legitimate reason for that: the legislator, in its wisdom, decided that it would be easier to describe the activities lobbyists are involved in by putting these lobbyists into three categories.
The most common, the one we think about the most often, is the consultant-lobbyist. These are consultants in government and public relations who work within an office and whose services are retained by several clients at the same time.
The consultant-lobbyist may have several mandates from several clients. Each mandate has a different objective and targets very specific lobbying activities. For example, a consultant-lobbyist's clients may include a mining company, a pharmaceutical company, an environmental group, etc. Consultant-lobbyists are paid by each of their clients.
The act requires consultant-lobbyists to register for each mandate they receive, so for each of their clients. If I were a consultant-lobbyist in demand, I might have 10, 15, or 20 registrations in my name, depending on the number of clients and mandates I have accumulated. If I am a little less successful in my business, I may not have as many.
That was the first category of lobbyists.
The two other categories are essentially what we call in-house lobbyists. They are not consultants. In the first case, they are hired by a corporation, such as Alcan, Nortel, or any other one; in the other case, they are hired by a non-profit organization. An example of that is the Red Cross, or another organization of that type, but it goes farther than that. It may be a sector or an industry association, such as a mining association or a forestry products association. They are essentially non-profit entities involved in lobbying activities.
As I was saying earlier, consultant-lobbyists, which is the first category, must register for each of their mandates, each of their clients. In the case of in-house lobbyists, the legislator decided that the registrations should be done by the chief executive officer of the organization. In the case of a corporation, the chief executive officer, the chief operating officer, must register the corporation and include in the declaration the names of all of the people who are involved in lobbying activities. In the case of a non-profit organization, the chief executive officer is also responsible for the registrations. That is why there are three types of lobbyists, to recognize the different realities lobbyists face.
On page 12, we have attempted to give you an idea of the kind of information that must be included in the lobbyist declaration. Generally speaking, regardless of the category, the information must include the identity, in other words the name of the lobbyist, the lobbyist's business address — if the lobbyist has another address, it must be indicated — the purpose of the activities, in other words the field, as well as the government organizations that will be targeted by the lobbying activities.
In the case of consultant-lobbyists, a little bit more information about the client may be requested. For each registration that consultant-lobbyists must complete, for each of their mandates, they must indicate who the client is, the purpose of the lobbying activities, and if there are subsidiaries and parent companies that will also benefit from the activities.
In the case of in-house lobbyists, whether they work for a corporation or for a non-profit organization, a description of the activities in which the organization is involved is requested.
Generally speaking, this is to give the public as much information as possible, not only about the activities, but also so that the public can know who is benefiting from these lobbying activities.
Are there any questions?
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
First of all, Mr. Nelson, I would like to welcome you and your team and thank you for coming to give us this briefing.
You've explained about the employees in the public sector who go and work in the private sector. How about the other way around? Let's say lobbyists working in the private sector get elected as members of Parliament. A previous lobbyist becomes Minister of Defence, for example.
How would you treat people like us, who are the elected representatives?
4:05 p.m.
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
The act is silent on that matter. The act talks about the registration of a lobbyist, not about the lobbyist's previous career. When they stop being a lobbyist, there is nothing to stop them from carrying on a different type of career.
There are other conflict of interest codes that the Ethics Commissioner looks after that may talk about some circumstances, but the Lobbyists Registration Act, which is my area of responsibility, doesn't speak to the point that you just raised.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
If that is the case, which category would the firm that this lobbyist was working for be under--conflict, or your jurisdiction?
4:05 p.m.
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
I'm sorry, the firm...?
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
4:05 p.m.
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
So the employer.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Because that firm will now have access to that office bureau, right?
4:05 p.m.
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
The lobbyists code of conduct speaks to a potential situation. That's why they have a registrar who looks into the facts of each individual situation.
Under the lobbyists code of conduct, which Karen will talk about in a few minutes, one part says that you're not supposed to exercise improper influence. So if you had a firm who now had special access into government, and that firm, in some meeting, for some purpose, said, “Look, you used to work for us, and we have some information about you that we don't think you want to get out while you're working for us,” and that came to my attention, I investigated it, and found it to be true, then the employing firm, the previous firm, could be in violation of the lobbyists code of conduct. That's the type of situation.
You really have to look at the facts of each individual situation. The mere existence of a possibility is not enough to convict or to say that anyone has breached anything.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Sir, you were talking about the availability of information to the public. Presumably registrations are registered and then put online, or that's how I understand the process works.
I would like you to clarify this. My understanding is that for some reason your office is late in putting some of that information online, late by as much as a month. Is that true? And if it is true, why is that?
4:10 p.m.
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
From time to time we have a tremendous number of renewals come in. That's one possibility. I'm not sure whether it's a month--
4:10 p.m.
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
--but let me speak to your question.
Last year, with the amendments that came in under the act, there was a new requirement that everyone had to re-register every six months. The first time that happened, which was around December or January, the flood that came in and the questions from people who were re-registering did cause us to get behind in that first six-month period. We had people working overtime at that. Anyone who needed to register desperately, if you will, was able to say to us, “Can you can get mine through? I have to have a meeting with someone, and the business of government has to go on.” We did our best to work with those situations.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative