Evidence of meeting #10 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mulroney.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Mulroney, my name is Brian Francis Patrick Murphy. I was born on St. Patrick's Day.
When you were elected, as a non-partisan gesture, I'd like to say that we in the Irish community were very proud of an Irish prime minister. You've done a lot, Mr. Mulroney, to help the Irish community.
Notwithstanding that, you will understand that I have some questions for you that I will ask with a great deal of respect. But they are more or less clean-up questions on things that have been left on the table here in the exigency of a ten-minute question round.
The first one I'd like to ask you is in regard to the letter of May 8, 2007, written to you by Mr. Schreiber. There were a number of questions on it. Very briefly, Mr. Mulroney, the letter, among other things, uses language such as the following: “This is my last warning” and “I am prepared to disclose...”, and there are a number of volatile....
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
12:40 p.m.
An hon. member
Je n'entends rien.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Well, that's because I'm not speaking. I'd have trouble if I were being translated and not speaking. I'd believe this conspiracy stuff.
The letter says, among other things, “This is my last warning”, and “I am prepared to disclose”. And there are a number of very damning comments there that would cause anyone, especially you, Mr. Mulroney, great concern. Then there is a threat. It says, “It is in your hands what is going to happen”. That was May 8, 2007. You referred to it twice as a blackmail letter.
Why did you not take this letter to the RCMP or the OPP to have it investigated? It is clearly a damning letter that intends to threaten you. Why did you not do that?
12:40 p.m.
P.C., As an Individual
This is what he did. This is the way he operated. You look through the correspondence. Look what he did with the affidavit. His movements are determined throughout the piece by his need to avoid extradition. He will do and say anything.
If you look at the correspondence carefully, one day he blames Mr. Chrétien and the Liberal government for the entire Airbus affair and demands a royal commission. Whoops! Mr. Harper wins, and he's expecting something from him. He doesn't get it, and he blames Mr. Harper and the Conservatives. One day, through Mr. Greenspan, and in many other instances, he is threatening to sue The Fifth Estate television program. The next day, he's the sweetheart of Sigma Chi with them, arm in arm down the lane, and they become his champions when it's to his interest to advance the cause of seeking to avoid extradition.
I got this thing. This was....
That was pure Schreiber.
I just took it aside and sent it to my lawyer, and that was the end of it.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
I understand your answer, Mr. Mulroney.
Moving on, you declared voluntarily on your tax return in 1999, or by way of voluntary declaration, the sum of $225,000. As I understand the tax law at that time, you would have had to write a letter asking for the indulgence of the Canadian government to report income later than you had incurred it. I understand the reason why you did it. You've made it very clear.
The question I have for you, Mr. Mulroney, is this. In that letter, you would have had to set out the reason why you were late in filing, the reason why you accepted the money, and what work was to have been done for the income. Therefore, I would ask you to table the letter you used to seek that indulgence from the Canadian government.
If you can't find it with your lawyer or your accountants or in your personal records, maybe Revenue Canada has a copy of it, and I would ask your indulgence, please, sir, in providing us with that letter.
12:40 p.m.
P.C., As an Individual
Well, first of all, I didn't write any letter. None was asked and none was required. I would just remind you that the only thing left that's sacred in Canada is the secrecy of our tax returns. I've told you that I declared it all, $225,000, and paid full tax on it. I had no dealings with anybody beyond that.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
So you did not declare it for years past; you declared it in the year you declared it. Is that what you're saying? Otherwise, a voluntary declaration setting out the reasons would be required, Mr. Mulroney.
12:45 p.m.
P.C., As an Individual
You can have this debate if you'd like, sir, but I was involved in no such procedure.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Fine.
There are also allegations out there--you might want to clear the air--that somehow you and your family needed money in August of 1993. You were leaving the office of prime ministership. You did say to Mr. Newman in one of those tapes--I have all your books--that you were going to do fine. And you've done very well, obviously. But was there an interregnum when you didn't have money, or is this completely false that you needed money? I suggest to you that it probably is, because you didn't really, as per your testimony today, use the money for personal expenses whatsoever.
12:45 p.m.
P.C., As an Individual
Mr. Chairman, I can't be brief in this response, because I can only go on at length when I'm being taped.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
You're on the member's time right now. So we want to share it between the both of you.
12:45 p.m.
P.C., As an Individual
Absolutely.
I would be, like any member here leaving office, as I've indicated, somewhat uncertain about the future but confident that I could move along. Did I have a ton of money? No. Was I broke? No. I had a wife and four young children and my mother, my late mother, to support. But I had been able to do it since my father's death, and without too much difficulty, and I felt confident that I could do it again.
I know that some people have said that they thought I had financial concerns. That's not accurate. I think it's more solicitude on their part than accuracy.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
That's good, and I'm glad to hear it. We're all going to leave politics some day. We're all hopeful.
You've said the lawsuit was a hoax, that it collapsed on the courtroom steps, and you sought $2.1 million through Alan Gold's intervention and most of your fees and expenses were paid. Some $38,000 and change to KPMG was not allowed, so that must have come out of your pocket.
You were very firm today that the lawsuit was a hoax and collapsed on the courtroom steps for lack of evidence. Why did you settle and pay $38,000 out of your pocket? Why did you settle and not seek money for the damage to you and your family and its reputation? Why didn't you continue the lawsuit?
12:45 p.m.
P.C., As an Individual
I said publicly that I would not accept any money for myself, because that money would come from the Canadian taxpayers. I didn't want any.
I didn't want money from this, although you have to sue for funds to get your case before the court. I have been gravely libelled around the world and damaged severely by this, so I initiated my lawsuit, sir, but not with a view to collecting money for myself.
When the government collapsed on the courthouse steps, they met with my lawyers, who came to see me and said, “Inasmuch as you're not going to accept any money for yourself, this collapse and what the government is ready to acknowledge is at least as good as you're going to do in any court filing, in any court judgment.” Therefore, I accepted the advice—and it was mine as well; they didn't have to push me too hard.
Mr. Murphy, there's another point. I've told you about the family, about my family. If it were your family, at a given point in time after this calamity and the sleepless nights and the problems and the challenges and the abuse and the headlines, you want to get on with your life. You just want to call it a day and get on with your life. And that's all I wanted to do.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
This is my final question, I guess, Mr. Mulroney. You have said that you weren't asked the question about future dealings or all your dealings with Mr. Schreiber at the discovery in the Palais de justice. Your declaration, the claim that you made in the libel suit, quotes the request for assistance and mentions Mr. Schreiber's name a number of times in that repeated request for assistance. Yet in the claim that you made, you have said, at paragraph 12(ii), that the plaintiff—that's you—“has never received any of the alleged payments, in any form, from any person, whether named or not in the Request for Assistance, for any consideration whatsoever”.
At the time you filed this claim—and it sounds from your earlier answers that you know what the claim says, and you are a lawyer of some high repute—that was not exactly true. You received money. This is very broad. You received money from Karlheinz Schreiber. So that statement, which I know is not a sworn statement—I'm a lawyer too—is a declaration that you made that you'd never received any payments from any person in any form for any consideration whatsoever.
12:50 p.m.
P.C., As an Individual
It's exactly true. It relates to the letter of request with the accusation that money had been received by me from Airbus, Thyssen, or MBB Helicopter. That statement, Mr. Murphy, is absolutely true.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Okay, thank you.
I'm going to give the floor to Mr. David Van Kesteren for about three minutes. He hasn't had an opportunity. It is his turn, but we will not be able to complete, so he'll have about three minutes. If you would accommodate each other, that would be great.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Prime Minister.
Just quickly, then, we're going to go right into it.
Mr. Schreiber has alleged that he, Frank Moores, and Gary Ouellet were the principals in supporting your successful 1983 leadership campaign. Is that true? Was he a big player? Do you owe him anything?
12:50 p.m.
P.C., As an Individual
Of course not. He said in a book he had nothing to do with 1983; he didn't participate in any way. That's what he said in his testimony.