Evidence of meeting #48 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was campaign.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Campbell  As an Individual
Andrew Kumpf  As an Individual
Marilyn Dixon  As an Individual
Cynthia Downey  As an Individual
Steve Halicki  As an Individual
Darren Roberts  As an Individual

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Order.

This is the 48th meeting of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

The order of the day is the motion, adopted by the committee, that the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics investigate the actions of the Conservative Party of Canada during the 2006 election in relation to which Elections Canada has refused to reimburse Conservative candidates for certain election campaign expenses, in order to determine if these actions meet the ethical standards of public office-holders.

Mr. Goodyear, on a point of order.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My point of order is procedural and deals with points of order.

A number of times through these proceedings, Mr. Chair, you have recognized the opposition immediately on their points of order and have not required them to define the object of their points of order, yet you continue to delay recognizing points of order on our side. Now, I know you think it's customary to play favourites; I also know that you are a Liberal, but I'm telling you that we need you to change this rule for our side, because recognizing points of order immediately is absolutely necessary to protect against prejudicing what is here before a true and real court of law.

Mr. Chair, my point of order is that you immediately respond to points of order by all members of this committee, not just the jury.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you, Mr. Goodyear.

I believe I've ruled on this already. The chair has the discretion under Marleau and Montpetit, and I'll refer you again to page 539 of Marleau and Montpetit on the rules.

As you could appreciate, if the chair had no discretion whether or not to interrupt someone in the middle of an answer or in the middle of a question.... And if a member were concerned about what was going on, or wanted somehow to disrupt it, they could simply on a point of order. As you know, the vast majority of points of order that members have raised have in fact been ruled not to be points of order.

So thank you for raising that, sir, but under the rules, the chair has the discretion to recognize and to stop the proceedings immediately. If it's not clear to the chair why someone has been stopped in mid-sentence, then the chair has some discretion. I don't believe there have been any negative consequences resulting from the—

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON

There absolutely have been, so that's your opinion, Mr. Chair. I'm telling you that you are favouring the opposite side, and I challenge your ruling.

10:05 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON

I challenge the ruling.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Order. Order, please.

Colleagues, as you know, when a committee is having some difficulty with order or decorum, the chair has two options—only two. One is simply to sit there and wait until the situation calms itself. The second is to bang the gavel and suspend the meeting to the call of the chair. I have resisted suspending the meeting to get order in this meeting, simply because it delays the time that we have to get to the work of the committee, which is hearing from witnesses.

Mr. Goodyear, this is not bafflegab, sir.

Colleagues, for the second time in these hearings, I have provided Mr. Goodyear with the reference in Marleau and Montpetit that provides the chair the discretion to take a decision based on whether or not it is clearly an immediate matter, and I've given that ruling. Mr. Goodyear has challenged my reading of Marleau and Montpetit and my statements. As a consequence, as you know, that is not debatable, and I must put it to a vote immediately.

So, Madam Clerk, the question is, shall the decision of the chair be sustained, and I would ask you to call the roll, please.

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 6; nays 5)

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you. We will now proceed.

Order, please.

Mr. Lemieux has called a point of order. Sir, perhaps you could state the basis before you—

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Yes. It's on procedure. I would like to know how it is....

First of all, I'd like to make the comment that if a witness is stopped in the middle of his statement, he is not prevented from finishing his statement—

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

I'm sorry, excuse me, Mr. Lemieux. Excuse me, sir.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

—after the point of order.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Excuse me, sir. We just dealt with that matter with Mr. Goodyear regarding.... You want to debate whether what we've already decided on—

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

No, I want to ask you a question.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Sir, you cannot ask—

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

I want to ask a question—

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Sorry. Order, please.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

I'd like to ask you a question, Mr. Chair.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Mr. Lemieux, I called for order.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

I'd like to ask you a question.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Order, please. You cannot ask questions of the chair on a point of order. Thank you.

We're going to move on to.... I'm sorry?

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Let me make my point of order. You cut me off. You didn't even let me finish it. Now, let me finish my point of order.

My point of order, sir, is that you cannot know, without hearing the member's point of order, whether or not it is relevant to the testimony being given. You cannot know that. If you refuse to hear the point of order, how can you know whether or not it is directly relevant to the testimony being given?

My other point is that the witness can continue with his testimony after you've heard the point of order. Everything is recorded. It's all transcribed. It's all here. It's not as if he was prevented from giving his answer.

You have no excuse for deferring a point of order. If it's relevant at that point in time, you wouldn't know that unless you accepted the point of order. So you should not be deferring it. You should be listening to the point of order. If you rule it out of order, fine. But you must hear the point of order to be able to render your judgment, unless you can read minds.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Order, please.

Mr. Del Mastro, please, I've called for order.

Mr. Lemieux, you clearly stated you wanted to ask me a question. The issue is the same one, about whether I can deal with a point of order immediately or not. This is the second time in these hearings that I've gone through it with the committee, with references to Marleau and Montpetit, chapter 13, under rules of order and decorum. It's the issue of rising on a point of order. I would encourage you to please have a look at that.

We have had a vote on that--sustaining the chair's handling of these matters. I encourage all members, if they're not sure, to please at least check with someone else before disrupting and interfering with this meeting any further. It's not in the public interest.

If it's okay with members, I'd like to proceed with the witnesses.

This morning on the agenda, four witnesses are listed. I will deal with the last one first. Mr. Jean Lecours was the official agent for Mr. Jacques Gourde, who is currently the member of Parliament for Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière. He contacted us on July 25 to say this--and I quote from the clerk's notes: “On July 25, M. Lecours called to say that, after consulting with Jacques Gourde, both of them will NOT testify before the Committee.” So Mr. Lecours is not here, and he advised us on July 25 that he would not be here.

Our other witnesses are related to the media buy. I want to welcome Mr. David Campbell, who is president and CEO of Group M Canada. It serves as the parent company for RMI, which is Retail Media. I also want to recognize Ms. Marilyn Dixon, who is the chief operating officer of RMI; and Mr. Andrew Kumpf, vice-president, broadcast operations, RMI.

I also want to introduce Mr. Malcolm Ruby. Mr. Ruby is legal counsel to our witnesses. I spoke with Mr. Ruby prior to the start of the meeting. He understands that he is welcome to be at the table and advise his clients but is not permitted to directly address the committee.

The witnesses have now been sworn in.

I can advise the committee that yesterday I dealt with a request from Retail Media to be permitted to make an opening statement not to exceed five minutes. Yesterday Mr. Goodyear raised the point that I haven't been treating all witnesses the same, so this is a slight departure. Therefore, I am going to ask for the permission of the committee to allow Retail Media to make an opening statement. Is that agreed?

10:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you. The committee has agreed and we will do that.

Order, please.

The issue has also arisen about the sub judice convention. All members were provided with the opinion of the law clerk of the House of Commons yesterday, in both official languages. I have been authorized by Mr. Walsh, the law clerk, to provide that to any parties who are interested. I provided it to our witnesses, so they are aware.

I'm not going to read it into the record. The members have the information to understand that when it comes to an issue, because there is a judicial proceeding ongoing that involves RMI, should that touch on a matter currently before that proceeding, they may be making argument why they cannot answer a question you may have asked. It relates primarily to the potential for prejudicing or comprising your position with regard to that proceeding. We'll deal with that if, as, and when it should arise. The chair will make a decision.

I would like to now invite Retail Media to make their opening statement.

10:15 a.m.

David Campbell As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

As you've indicated, my name is David Campbell, and thank you for the introduction. I'd add that during the time of the 2006 federal election I was the president and chief executive officer of Retail Media. As you've indicated, Marilyn Dixon is the chief operating officer of Retail Media; Andrew Kumpf is the vice-president of broadcast operations for Retail Media; and Malcolm Ruby is our counsel.

We have a brief opening statement.

We look forward to the opportunity today to outline our role in placing media advertising during the 2006 federal campaign. Retail Media is in the business of planning and placing advertising across Canada in all media, including television, radio, and newspaper. Our client, the Conservative Party of Canada, engaged us to place their advertising for the 2006 federal election.

Our relationship with the Conservative Party is purely a business relationship. Our role was to recommend in which medium ads should appear, negotiate with the media for the most effective placement, book the ads, pay the media, and invoice the client. We do not write or produce the ads; others provide those services.

During the campaign, the party approached us to provide media services for the official agents of some party candidates. We insisted on coordinating candidate billings through the party. It was then up to the party to collect money from the candidates.

There were two reasons for our insistence in operating this way. First, the media outlets require cash up front for political party advertising, and there was a short timeframe for cash collections. Second, billing dozens of candidates across the country would have been an administrative nightmare for us. Therefore, the party acted as the contact between Retail Media and the candidates.

This is our preferred operating procedure. It's the same as in the private sector, where we would prefer to bill a single franchisor and not individual franchisees. While we insisted on payment in instructions through the party, we treated the party and the candidates as separate and distinct clients for our purposes of booking media, paying the media outlets, and our own invoicing.

Media budgets were determined by our clients and not by us. The party itself and the party on behalf of the candidates specified the budgets. We then recommended what media to buy in particular markets, booked the media, paid for the time, and invoiced according to the client's instructions. Retail Media bought time at competitive commercial rates. We also provided advice on what media outlets covered what ridings. How the clients chose to divide the cost of a buy was up to them. This is not relevant to us. Our focus was on having the total amount of money available to meet the media outlets' requirement for upfront payment. This is the normal practice in the private sector where, say, franchisors and a group of franchisees determine amongst themselves how much each will contribute to a media buy.

In our role as media buyers, we are not, nor do we claim to be, expert in the federal Elections Act. Our clients provide the budgets; our job is to stay within them. That said, we requested and received confirmation from our client that the candidates' spending was within the allowable budget. We had no reason to doubt our client's interpretation of the Canada Elections Act.

Almost two years after the election, two officials from Elections Canada interviewed us. They showed us an invoice and asked whether we had created it. The format of the invoice shown to us was not the same as the original. However, the media dollar amount for the individual riding was identical to our original invoice, with the GST calculation added.

We've provided the committee with two examples of different invoice formats. Have they been distributed?