Information & Ethics Committee on Aug. 14th, 2008

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

That amendment is in order.

So that all colleagues understand, we'll now be addressing the amendment, but certainly in the context of the whole motion. In both instances, whether the amended motion or the motion as it stands passes, Mr. Goldstein will be heard today. It's just a matter of whether it will be after Mr. Mayrand or after we finish our committee business this afternoon.

Moving on with our list, I'll go to Madame Lavallée.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Chair, it does seem somewhat cavalier for a Conservative party worker to appear here after being invited to appear on a different date, so he appears here without giving us notice, at the last minute, and asks to be heard right now, squeezing the witnesses we had already scheduled for hearing. It is hard to imagine that we can continue to operate like this in this committee.

We do, however, clearly sense a Conservative philosophy behind this, the philosophy of people who always seem to be above the law, above the rules, and can do what they see fit and talk at the same time as other people, with no manners...

You have no manners, Mr. Del Mastro. I am speaking. When you speak, I always listen to you. So I would like you to do exactly the same thing. Thank you.

So I was saying that this is part of a Conservative philosophy, to have no manners and appear without letting anyone know.

That being said, we do have manners. So I think we should hear him, in fact. I was preparing to amend Ms. Redman's motion when Mr. Martin did it. So we will agree to that amendment being adopted. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Mr. Del Mastro.

But before I go there, I'm sensing there's a little animation going on here while people are making their interventions. Let me be straight. There's a little bit of heckling going on here, and people are throwing....

Like this, Mr. Del Mastro. Exactly like that. When somebody has the floor, somebody like you jumps in and tries to disrupt or deflect attention.

I'm now asking members to please restrain themselves when another member has the floor. Do not interrupt, because it means that other members can't hear what's being said. Other people here who are following these proceedings cannot hear because members are throwing in throwaway remarks and gratuitous heckling for no reason whatsoever. And I want it to stop. Understand that, all honourable members. I want it to stop.

Mr. Tilson, you have the floor. Oh, are you still on? Okay, carry on, and then we'll go to Mr. Tilson.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

I'd like to move a subamendment to the amendment, which is that we hear Mr. Goldstein immediately.

Mr. Chair, if you want to know, Mr. Martin pointed out yesterday why he's the cussing cowboy over in the corner, and it's because you're the architect of this disaster. You could have told Mr. Goldstein when he arrived, “Yes, I believe it's entirely unreasonable that you received a summons Monday late afternoon to be here Tuesday. We appreciate that you made the arrangements to come to Ottawa to provide your testimony.” This is an opposition witness, the jury's witness. None of our witnesses were even allowed. Now they're telling him, “Thanks for coming. We don't want to hear from you.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order, sir.

There's an important point here that I want you to be aware of. Mr. Goldstein confirmed to us that the only date he was available was August 12, and that's where we slotted him. This is a change to us. This is not what we expected. We slotted him there. We slotted him on the date he preferred, and now we have this other situation.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Chair, you just told the committee, I would say probably 10 minutes ago, that subsequent to receiving his summons he was in contact with the clerk and said he could be here Thursday, not Tuesday. So you have known that for several days—again, something you've withheld from the balance of the members of this committee.

Now we have people saying they don't want to hear from this witness. People are saying we need to sanction people. Well, its entirely unreasonable. You either want to hear from your witnesses, the opposition either wants to hear from its witnesses—we know they didn't want to hear from ours—or they don't. Which way do you want it? Let's hear from him right now.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Sir, could you please put your subamendment in writing so that the clerk has it? I want it put in writing.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Can I see the original motion in writing, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

We have the motion and the amendment. I just want to--

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Do you have them in writing, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Yes.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

How come you have them?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Well, they have to be translated.

Mr. Tilson, you have the floor on this. There's a motion, an amendment, and a subamendment, but I think the issue is all one. So if you'd like to provide your input--

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

No, I don't think I can add to this wonderful debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Okay. The next person on the list is Mr. Lemieux.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I would like to comment on this.

This witness should be heard now. You've made a huge fuss about the appearance of witnesses and witnesses not appearing. You've made a huge fuss about your summonses, the summonses you issued. You've gone to the media with all your concerns. You've played it up in the media. And now we have witnesses coming, responding to the summons, and you're brushing them aside: “Take a seat in the back.”

We have Mr. Martin, who wants to put aside a lot of time to discuss the issue of summonses and people not coming. But I think anybody, any Canadian, would realize that if someone received a summons on Monday afternoon in Toronto, to expect them to be in Ottawa on Tuesday morning is not practical. It's not realistic.

You might say that he offered back in July that August 12 was free, but from the time he said that and you delivered a summons to him, his schedule probably changed. I don't know about your schedule, but my schedule changes. I had to make changes to my schedule, and my schedule is constantly changing. Maybe he can enlighten us, but I think we have to hear from him on this matter.

What I want to say, sir, is that you have made a huge fuss here in committee and to the media about witnesses not appearing and about summonses you've issued. We've had Doug Finley come in front of us, and you turned him away. This is the campaign manager at the national level. You turned him away. “He's not our witness.” You turned him away.

We have a gentleman who has been summonsed by you to appear here today and you're turning him away. You're throwing him to the back, as are the opposition. And this after Mr. Martin wants long healthy discussion on what we should do about people who don't respond to summonses.

That's my point. We should hear from the witness now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

To be clear, Mr. Lemieux, you talked about “you”, the chair, has done this, and “you”, etc. I would like to inform you, if you weren't aware, that the decision not to hear Mr. Finley when he arrived on Monday was voted on by the committee. The committee decided not to hear him then.

I have not dismissed Mr. Goldstein as you said. Please don't put words in my mouth.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Well, because we have a witness in front of us. I can't be having a conversation.... I don't know why you're interrupting me again in the middle of my statement to the committee.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Again you're interrupting, Mr. Del Mastro. I'm speaking to Mr. Lemieux. I'm asking you specifically, sir, please don't interfere. Don't interrupt when others have the floor.

As a consequence of Mr. Goldstein coming, which was unknown to me, I have asked the committee to consider what they would like to do in this situation. We have motions before us now--a motion, an amendment, and a subamendment, Mr. Lemieux--and these are all by the committee.

I am asking you, please, not to say that I did anything. I follow the instructions of the committee. Don't blame the chair when there are motions that are put by members and voted on by the members of this committee.

[An hon. member]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Please do not say the chair is doing anything unilaterally. I've heard this far too often. I won't take that anymore. The chair does not run this committee; the committee runs the committee.

The next person after Mr. Lemieux is Mr. Goodyear.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

No, no. I'd like to respond to that, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

No. I'm sorry, there's no debate. You finished your statement and I'm correcting you, sir. You misled people about what was going on here, sir.