Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 17th, 2009

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

How about between 2007 and 2006 or previous editions?

[Joe Wild]

There are far more substantive differences in the editions of 2006 and 2007, in that 2006 predates the Federal Accountability Act. The 2006 edition was issued by the Prime Minister upon coming into office in February.

The 2007 edition is post the passing of the Federal Accountability Act so it contains sections dealing with the role of deputy ministers as accounting officers. It contains annexes G and H, which were not there before, ethical conduct and the political activity guidelines. Ethical conduct used to be in a code, and when the Conflict of Interest Act was brought into force through the Federal Accountability Act, the ethical portions were put into annex G.

There is usually some cleanup of language going on. We're continually parsing language.

Those would be the major changes. Certainly annex H is a change in the sense that it did not exist in that form prior to 2007.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you very much.

You mentioned that you and your colleagues have been busy with the implementation of the Federal Accountability Act. Has that been a significant task? How has it changed the regime for lobbying the federal government, as opposed to what was in place prior to the Accountability Act?

[Joe Wild]

My particular role in implementation was in my previous job, when I was executive director of strategic policy at the Treasury Board Secretariat. I was responsible for coordinating the government's implementation of the legislation. Much of that work had been completed by the time we got into 2007.

Since then, much of the focus in terms of lobbying in particular... There was some focus on finding a candidate to be the lobbying commissioner. From my perspective, it's more in watching and understanding how the commissioner is interpreting and implementing that legislation. That's primarily what we're looking at as we head toward the potential of the five-year reviews of the Lobbying Act being triggered in another year or two.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you. Do you consider the Accountability Act and its rules to be an improvement on the previous system?

[Joe Wild]

Aspects of the Accountability Act have changed how the government functions in some very fundamental ways. In particular, I would suggest that the accounting officer regime and reminding deputy ministers of their role in the management of their organizations has had the desired impact on the system in improving and heightening the management capacity of deputies and departments. It's difficult because one doesn't necessarily want to bring a lot of value judgments into these types of scenarios. I think the Accountability Act brought more transparency, more oversight mechanisms, and has clarified the roles of deputy ministers around the management of their organizations. One can debate whether all of these have contributed significantly to the better management of the Government of Canada or not.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you.

Mr. Dorion, please.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Wild, if I understand correctly, you are the individual in cabinet responsible for the machinery of government. I would imagine that you advise the Prime Minister on the application of the guide we received this morning. Is that correct?

[Joe Wild]

I wouldn't say that it's my job to advise the Prime Minister on specific situations that may arise in terms of how to apply the principles in accountable government; it's certainly my job to advise the Prime Minister in terms of the writing of accountable government. If asked, certainly we would provide our advice on how the Westminster system operates, the roles of the Prime Minister, the roles of the Governor General, and so on. If you're asking if I play a role in providing advice to the Prime Minister on a situation where there's a question of the ethical conduct of a minister, I do not.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Earlier on, you were asked a very specific question. Do you believe it is in keeping with the ethical guidelines to use the Conservative Party logo on cheques for grants to be paid out of public funds, in other words taxpayers' funds? You answered that you were not an expert in that area. Do you not see that type of answer as affecting your credibility when you appear before a committee like this one?

[Joe Wild]

Ultimately, Mr. Chairman, the members of the committee will judge whether I have credibility or not. I give the best answers that I can. Do I think it affects my credibility? No. I think I'm answering as one would expect a public servant to answer questions that are asking a public servant to go beyond the role public servants play when they appear before committees.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I will now hand over the rest of my time to my colleague.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

My question is to you, Mr. Wild.

The Privy Council Office holds regular meetings with the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. Is that correct?

[Joe Wild]

Yes.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

When was the last time she met with you to inform you of the limits of her mandate and of the changes she would like to see brought to it?

[Joe Wild]

Could you repeat your question?

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

When was the last time she met with you to inform you of the limits of her mandate and changes she would like to have brought to it?

[Joe Wild]

You are asking when the most recent meeting took place.

There's nothing structured, in the sense that we have a regular meeting with the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. We will occasionally have dialogue around the interpretation of provisions of the legislation. She will occasionally ask for our views on certain aspects of the legislation given the role that we played in crafting it. But it's nothing more than that.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Perhaps you could consult your agenda and tell us chronologically over the last few years what has happened with respect to requests from the commissioner. I am certain she wants to fulfil her mandate pursuant to the expectations of government and of the machinery of government. I would imagine she meets with you regularly. I would like you to consult your agendas and see when the most recent requests were made by her, so you may inform the committee of your dealings with the commissioner.

My second question is to you, Ms. Boyd.

Are you made aware, systematically, of public office holders who are the subject of investigations for reasons of conflicts of interests or other types of investigations where there is some suspicion of potential conflicts of interest?

Could you also tell me what would be the penalties provided and what the process is? Would these people be put on leave without pay, with pay, are they transferred? Would a deputy minister, who himself has been appointed, have the power to direct such an investigation?

I'm asking you all these questions because it seems as though there are no guidelines as to who is responsible for managing the application of the code as such.

[Eileen Boyd]

Perhaps I could comment on some of our processes, because I think that might address some of your questions.

When we have a Governor in Council appointee, whether it's a deputy minister, a CEO, a chair of a crown corporation, or a head of a federal agency, we make sure that, number one, they understand the requirements of the position. When we post some of these Governor in Council appointees on the public website, the notice of vacancy, in the cases when we do post a notice of vacancy, will specify that the guidelines are a term and condition of appointment. Prior to being appointed, we ask that Governor in Council appointees sign a certification form so that they understand that it is a condition of appointment.

The Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner sets out the regime for reporting public office holders: essentially full-time Governor in Council appointees and, to a lesser extent, those Governor in Council appointees who are only public office holders, that is, those who are part-time Governor in Council appointees.

Prior to the actual appointment, we have a discussion with individuals to make them aware of the obligations under the Conflict of Interest Act. Once somebody is appointed, the person is required to certify to the Conflict of Interest Commissioner within 60 days. At that point, it is the Conflict of Interest Commissioner's role to determine whether there's a conflict of interest. If at any time during the tenure of a Governor in Council appointee she feels there is a need for investigation, that is certainly her role. She does not interact with PCO. She does not inform us of who she's investigating, and she does not consult with us. That is her independent role, and it is up to her to determine what the penalties need to be or what the changes need to be. In some cases, it may be a divesting of their assets, and in some cases it may be some other measures that need to be taken.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mrs. Davidson, please.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Wild and Ms. Boyd, for appearing before us this morning.

We've talked a little bit this morning about the public service, just briefly, and about a couple of questions that have come from the other side. I think it's very clear that ministers and ministers of state must respect the non-partisanship of the public service of Canada and not seek to engage public servants in work that is outside their appropriate role. I think we've heard a few comments here this morning that have attempted to politicize the public service of Canada. I think that's totally wrong.

I would like to ask whether you believe this guide does enough to protect public servants so that they don't compromise their ethics.

[Joe Wild]

Does the guide do enough to protect public servants so that they don't compromise their ethics?

The ethical rules for public servants are found in their own code of values and ethics. Basically, everyone in the public service has a responsibility to live those values and ethics, to talk about them, and to ensure in the way they conduct their work that they're respecting them. Every one of us in the public service carries with us those ideals of being non-partisan, of providing the best professional public policy advice we can to the government of the day, and of loyally implementing the agenda of that government. Certainly I think writing down these expectations helps. Trying to be as clear as one can be in writing about the role of the public service and its relationship with ministers helps. But at the end of the day, it's about the individual actions individual ministers, members of Parliament, senators, and public servants take. How each of us conducts our relations with each other and how that plays out determines whether we're protecting that notion of a non-partisan professional public service.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

We're all aware that certainly the centrepiece, or one of the centrepieces, of this government's agenda was to transform the accountability regime applicable to the federal government. We've heard a lot of discussion about that this morning. We enacted the Federal Accountability Act, the legislative basis for this transformation. That's been put in place. Can you demonstrate or give me an example of how this has positively impacted public office holders in their day-to-day duties?

[Joe Wild]

One change arising out of the Federal Accountability Act was the introduction of the accounting officer model and the impact it has had on the attention and care that deputy ministers pay to the management of their organizations. I don't want to overstate this, because I think deputy ministers have always paid attention to the management of their organizations. But the accounting officer model helped to clarify the roles of the minister and the deputy in their partnership in ensuring that departments of government are well managed.

I think about my days in Treasury Board. The current clerk and former secretary of the Treasury Board have said before various committees of the House of Commons that this was a significant shift in the symbolism and mentality of the systems of government. It recognized that it was important for deputy ministers to ensure that the best possible public policy advice was being provided to their ministers and that they were paying attention to the management of their organizations.