Evidence of meeting #5 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Jacques Maziade

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Okay.

I would therefore ask our clerk to go to the mips2010.ca website. Please print out all of the information under their agenda link and circulate it in both official languages to all the members.

Now that we've had input from the members on this, and I think Madame Freeman led us off very well, I'm going to ask the researchers to give us a preliminary starting point, a work plan on the issues related to the Information Commissioner. We're going to start off there.

April 29 is the kickoff for the meeting on the proactive disclosure, so we'll have lots of time to get some information.

So starting basically in May.... That's our time horizon to see about the availability of the other witnesses. As a starting point, the principal witnesses are Treasury Board, Quebec, and the Information Commissioner.

The idea is that we want to have at least a week of meetings scheduled and keep ahead of the curve. We will deal with the conference in Toronto at our next meeting and see how that goes.

I would just ask for the committee's direction. If no one else can attend, does the committee want to make sure that we have at least one representative, or maybe two, from the Library of Parliament to attend, to help us with our project? Is that a good idea?

12:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

All right.

Mr. Rickford.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

You had mentioned earlier that you and Mr. Easter couldn't go. Are you saying that nobody from the Liberal Party would be able to go to that?

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Mr. Easter can't attend. I can't attend. We can't speak for Madam Foote. She's not here. She's out of town.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Okay, I'm just clarifying that.

You mentioned there is an early bird registration, so the decision for the analysts and/or any member who might go would be something I think we should probably look at in this time of fiscal restraint.

I'm sensitive as well to the Easter break and the week after and to getting this information out to committee members, as Ms. Freeman had mentioned, so we have a real understanding of what benefit, if any, this would actually have for members, or, as you seem to be recommending strongly, that the analysts just attend. If they're there, where does that leave us at the committee?

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

We have support from the Library of Parliament at all meetings, no question.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Okay.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

I hear you about the early bird thing. I'm sure the clerk will work all this out and advise us when we get back. Even if we decide to do it on the Tuesday we come back, we have to approve a budget and then we have to go before the liaison committee to plead our case of why we should be able to go. It's going to be a tight line, I'm sorry, but that's our process.

We will get a preliminary work plan on the basis of the input of members, which will be available on the Tuesday when we get back. It will be circulated to members in advance, so we can discuss it on the Tuesday when we get back.

It's helpful. I sense that there is a commitment of the committee to deal with this, but with caution not to let it get out of hand. We'll keep a tight rein, and I think the committee is always in a position to be able to change our focus or direction as appropriate. We're not going to lock ourselves into a rigid framework for dealing with this. Once we get through the first two or three meetings on educating ourselves, I think a lot of this discussion will be a little more fruitful.

I thank members for taking the time to provide their input and to be prepared.

That was item number one. Our item number two is this. Mr. Easter has a motion for which he gave notice to the committee. It is in order. The appropriate timeline has been given.

Mr. Easter, are you prepared to move your motion?

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Yes. I will move my motion and speak to the reasons why, if that's appropriate, Mr. Chair. Do you want the motion read?

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Why don't you read the motion, please?

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Okay. It reads:

That the committee conduct a study regarding allegations of systematic political interference by the Minister's offices to block, delay or obstruct the release of information to the public regarding the operations of government departments and that the committee call before it: Honourable Diane Finley, Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development. At a separate meeting or meetings: Dimitri Soudas, Associate Director, Communications/Press Secretary, Prime Minister's Office; Guy Giorno, Chief of Staff, Prime Minister's Office; Ryan Sparrow, Director of Communications, Office of the Minister, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada; Sebastien Togneri, former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Public Works Canada; Patricia Valladao, Chief, Media Relations, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada; and That the committee submit a report to the House of Commons on its findings.

Mr. Chair, the reasons for putting this motion are pretty straightforward. There appears to be a systematic and ongoing intent of this government to permit tampering with information requests. If news accounts are correct—and I'll go through some of these media accounts in a moment—one has to ask the question, why has this government failed to take any action with respect to the serious allegations of tampering with, or interfering with, an access to information request, which on the surface, at least to me, appears to be a direct violation of subsection 67(1) of the Access to Information Act?

The next question, Mr. Chair, would be, why this specific list of witnesses?

The reason for calling the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development is that the incident most recently reported involved her office and her communications director, Ryan Sparrow. According to an article in the Globe and Mail by Daniel Leblanc on March 29—and I have these articles here—on February 25 an e-mail exchange between Mr. Sparrow and bureaucrats in the department took place in which Mr. Sparrow attempted to block the revelation of the price tag of the ads to promote Conservative budget measures related to the Vancouver Olympics. Ms. Valladao, also identified in the news story, could provide some additional information on the exchange with Mr. Sparrow over this issue.

The minister should be called to explain why a senior member of her political staff intentionally attempted to prevent legitimate information from being released specifically following the issuance of instructions by Guy Giorno, the Prime Minister's chief of staff, on February 19 reminding Conservative political staff to “respect the access to information process”. That almost in itself implies some guilt.

One would have thought respect for the law would be something that senior Conservative staff would not need reminding of, but apparently they do, which brings me to why we must hear from Ryan Sparrow and Sebastien Togneri. Both are, or were, senior political staff to Conservative cabinet ministers, the former with Human Resources and Skills Development and the latter with the Minister of Public Works' office. Both have been identified by the media as having directly intervened in trying to stop the release of information requested legitimately from their departments. There arises, therefore, a serious question with respect to why it is that incidents months apart in separate departments by different individuals have all had the same outcome, mainly the attempt to interfere with the legitimate release of public information.

It's incomprehensible that this is a coincidence. The only possible conclusion, in my view, is that there is and has been an expectation of senior political staff to intervene in the accessing and release of information from the department their minister is responsible for.

This is a serious breach, which brings us to Mr. Giorno and Mr. Soudas, both of whom occupy the most senior political staff positions and should be able to enlighten the committee on their knowledge of and role, if any, in either sanctioning this kind of behaviour and/or what measures they took to deal with those matters.

As a final point, I have to raise the more general issue that has been emerging about this government and the offices of ministers directly involving themselves in the access to information issue.

Lawrence Martin, in a February 24, 2010, Globe and Mail article, raised what must be of concern to this committee. I quote:

Harper spokesman Dmitri Soudas issued a warning that due diligence on access requests “should be done by public servants and not political staff.” If it was an isolated incident, it's unlikely the alert would have been necessary.

This leads me to believe that it was not an isolated incident.

To look at how things were handled on the Afghan detainee file--the attempts to block documents, the blacking out of so much of what was released--is to see all kinds of evidence of mischief.

The bottom line is that there potentially seems to be a serious breach of subsection 67(1) of the Access to Information Act. There are serious concerns here that this may be a systematic and ongoing attempt by the government, using staff, to permit the tampering with information requests. I believe the only way to get to the bottom of this issue and clear the record is to have--as I mentioned in my motion--the various witnesses come forward.

Thank you.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Mr. Siksay, please.

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Thank you, Chair.

I just want to say that I do support the motion that's been put forward by Mr. Easter, and I share all of the concerns he has mentioned.

I think this is a very serious issue and it is one that this committee, in particular because of our responsibilities around access to information, can't ignore.

I myself have taken some personal initiative in writing to the Information Commissioner to ask her to investigate under section 67.1 of the Access to Information Act the incident regarding the release of the real estate portfolio documentation, but also the more recent one from the office of the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development.

So I believe they are very serious issues, and it seems to me, although I'm no legal expert, that they do pertain to the application of section 6.71 of the act.

Chair, it strikes me that we have seen some excellent media reporting, and in-depth media reporting, on this issue. Certainly the stories in The Hill Times are particularly well done and helpful on this issue, but also I think rather shocking.

When you hear political staff in ministers' offices saying that the PMO yelled at them.... I think that was actually the term they used, that people get yelled at when information that is considered unfavourable to the government is somehow released, even though the public servants who are responsible for gathering that information have cleared its release.

I think too that some of the testimony that was included in those news stories is also particularly shocking and goes to the whole question of whether there is a culture that has developed in ministers' offices and among political staff and is perpetrated or encouraged by others in certainly the PMO and other places that suggest that this kind of interference would be appropriate.

A quote from one of the news stories states, “Any push back or staff who dared cross [PMO issues management staff]”, which is who they're talking about in this quote, “...or tried to say that they could not stop it was insulted on the phone before all their colleagues and mocked”. It continues with: “Ministers' staff feel that if they don't do as they are told that the PMO can order them to be fired or that if they do not carry out orders, or implied orders, that their might be ramifications for their boss.”

I think that's a very serious allegation made by political staff in a minister's office. I think it's hard for us to ignore that kind of revelation, and I think we do need to try to get to the bottom of it.

Chair, I have to say that I am a little concerned about us engaging the study while the Information Commissioner is also working on it as a priority investigation. I believe we've established a system where the Information Commissioner has responsibility for this kind of investigation, and I think it's an appropriate system that we've established.

Although in the situation where the Information Commissioner is unable to give us a clear idea of when a report might be forthcoming on this issue, I do believe that it is of such a serious nature that we can't put off our look at it for very long either. So in that light, I am prepared to go ahead, although I do want to say that for my part, this doesn't indicate any lack of confidence in the Information Commissioner or her office and the folks who work there and their ability to appropriately investigate this situation, and I do look forward to their ultimate report on it. But I also think this is of such a serious nature that this committee does need to pay some attention to it as well.

Thank you, Chair.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Mr. Poilievre, please.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

Along that line, I would like to propose an amendment to the motion, by adding, after the word “That”:

After the Information Commissioner complete her study on the matter,

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Okay.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

Should I introduce that?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

You have.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

Can I make a comment on my amendment?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

If you wish, please go ahead.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, we have a process in place that allows the Information Commissioner to carry out these sorts of investigations. All of us on this committee have expressed faith in the existing commissioner by adopting her estimates. It would make sense that we would continue to show that faith by allowing her to complete her investigation. She'll obviously report her findings to this committee.

I would think we'd want to amend the motion either now or later, or bring in a different motion, to add her to the list of witnesses so she could also testify. It would seem to make more sense to do that after she's completed her good work.

We have no reason to distrust her or believe that she would do her work improperly. No member of any party, on the government or opposition side, has suggested that she cannot be trusted to do this work. We should just allow her to complete the study.

This issue will still be here when she's done. It's not as though the end of the world is coming--though I'm not in the business of making those kinds of predictions--and therefore a study will not be permitted.

We do know there will be a day when she will complete her study. At that point this committee could simply carry out a supplementary study, which includes her as a witness, and examine the findings she brings forward.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Mr. Easter.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will be opposing the amendment, and I'll outline the reasons.

As I indicated, and as Bill did as well, this is an extremely serious issue of rather urgent importance. As I alleged, there seems to be almost systematic behaviour across a number of departments. The investigation being carried out at the moment is more narrow than what we're proposing here.

I did ask the commissioner when she was before us the other day how long her process is going to take before it's completed. She said the last time they conducted an investigation such as that, it took three years. She said she was hoping to have that...so 18 months is her goal.

Mr. Chair, at best, it's 18 months on a much narrower focused investigation. Given the lack of transparency by the Government of Canada on so many fronts, the interconnections between several staffers in departments now, and an order from the Prime Minister's chief of staff, which in itself seems to imply there had to be something going on, I see this as an urgent matter.

I agree with what Bill said earlier. I have full faith in the commissioner. I think she does good work. We passed her estimates. But this is of a more urgent basis. She admitted that her timeframe is 18 months down the road.

The government must provide access to information as we see fit. We need to investigate whether there are violations of the act and staff interference in terms of proper information being made available.

For all those reasons, I oppose the amendment and I support the original motion.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

I think the members have made their positions clear.

On a motion by Mr. Easter, an amendment has been proposed by Mr. Poilievre that after the word “That”, we include the words “After the Information Commissioner has completed her study on the matter”.

Sorry, I guess that would be the first phrase, actually, not after the word “That”—right?

It should read, “After the Information Commissioner has completed her study on the matter, that the committee conduct a study”, and so on, as it is there.

Do the members understand the amendment from Mr. Poilievre? Are we ready to vote on it?

Did you want a recorded division?