Evidence of meeting #9 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was code.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It just made reference to the fact that there were some allegations that this individual named Mr. Snowdy was making.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
11:50 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
Okay.
In your opening remarks you said you're also mandated to provide confidential advice to the Prime Minister about conflict of interest and ethics issues. Have you provided advice to the Prime Minister on any file in the past month?
11:50 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No, I don't think so.
The advice that the Prime Minister would seek from me wouldn't be on a particular file. It would be a general ethical issue, generally, although it could vary.
11:50 a.m.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Welcome, Ms. Dawson. I wish to thank you for being here today.
A little earlier, in answer to a question from my colleague, you stated that, at the time, you did not have all of the information in order to undertake an investigation. The answer you provided is certainly not irreversible.
Has there since been additional information leading you to believe that it would be wise to launch an investigation into the matter? Several allegations have been added since your decision to not launch an investigation.
11:50 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I will answer in English.
When we get any information about anything that looks like it might involve a contravention of either the act or the code, we very diligently look into it. We can't make decisions instantaneously on information that comes to our attention, but I can assure you, if there's any information that we have, we follow up on it. There are many instances when we've followed up on matters that never hit the media. This happens to be one that's hit the media. We always look into whatever comes our way.
11:50 a.m.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
If I am not mistaken, you did not say that you were in the process of following up: you stated outright that you would not undertake an investigation. That is an answer in itself.
11:50 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No, I did not say that I would not carry out an investigation. I said that I was not in the process of doing one at the time.
11:55 a.m.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Fine.
Is your mandate to investigate allegations of infractions of this nature, especially involving public office holders, such as in the case of Ms. Guergis?
11:55 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, I have a mandate to investigate public office holders, but I don't investigate them until I have reasonable grounds to do so. Now, I'm using a short term. “Investigate” can either be an inquiry or an examination. The terminology gets quite confusing, too. I investigate right from the start, but it's not a formal inquiry or examination until the requirements of the code and the act have been met.
11:55 a.m.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Did you receive information from the Prime Minister's Office and information preventing you from launching an investigation?
11:55 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No.
11:55 a.m.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Very well.
According to information provided by several sources, Ms. Guergis may have used her position as elected representative in order to facilitate contacts for her spouse and the company he is associated with. In your view, does that not constitute a form of influence peddling?
11:55 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It is possible. Once I have information, I will investigate.
As I explained, I have to allow the person who is complained against under the code 30 days to respond, and then I have 15 days to consider whether to proceed to a formal investigation. So there's a difference between investigating—sorry, I should have called that a formal inquiry under the code—and an inquiry or an examination.
11:55 a.m.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Are you confirming to us that the process in underway, that the individual involved now falls under the 30-day window, or have things not even yet reached that stage?
11:55 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
There are very strict prohibitions in the code against what I can and cannot disclose. The prohibitions are not so strong under the act. I also have to be very careful which vehicle I'm talking about. We're talking about the code, I assume.
Under the code, the rule is:
Other than to confirm that a request for an inquiry has been received, or that a preliminary review or inquiry has commenced, or been completed, the Commissioner shall make no public comments relating to any preliminary review or inquiry.
I have confirmed that a request was received from Ms. Davies. That's all I can do under this provision until I indicate whether an inquiry has commenced. Well, an inquiry cannot have commenced for 45 days.
11:55 a.m.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Furthermore, when I asked you if this could be a case of influence peddling, you answered that it was possible.
Does that mean that you are unable to state today with certainty, beyond any reasonable doubt, that there was no influence peddling? You say that it is possible, but we, as elected representatives, must expect that this file will move forward over the course of the coming days or weeks. You are clearly telling us that there is some doubt in your mind today. That is what I hear when you say that “it is possible“.
11:55 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No, it's a question of fairness to the person who has been accused of doing something. The code requires that you give that person 30 days to say what they have to say before you proceed to a preliminary investigation, and that's what I'm doing.
11:55 a.m.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Earlier, when you talked about the code and the acts, you said that there were two ways of filing a complaint. If the complaint was poorly formulated or was not presented in the proper way, do you have the mandate, or the power, to change course and to investigate in a different way?
11:55 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Both the code and the act require that there be reasonable grounds. It can't just be a suggestion that I investigate something with no grounds given. But if there are reasonable grounds, and if it meets the formal requirement that it come in writing or be signed or something like that, if those two are accepted, then under the act, I proceed immediately. Under the code, I have to wait 45 days.
Noon
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
However, when allegations are brought forward day after day, are these not sufficient grounds?
Noon
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Sufficient for what?
