Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 24th, 2011

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Thank you, Mr. Dreeshen.

Thank you, Mr. Lacroix.

Mr. Scarpaleggia.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Lacroix, you were interrupted earlier on because time had run out. Mr. Calkins, I believe, had just mentioned that until now there had been enough decisions handed down by various courts, including the Supreme Court, that should have reassured you on the fact that journalistic sources would be protected from any request for information.

Would you like to take this opportunity to answer that question?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity.

I was asked why we continued to turn to the courts whereas our concern only affected journalistic material, which is already protected under other pieces of legislation.

I would simply remind you that section 68.1 specifies that all requests regarding our programming, our creative activities and our journalistic sources are excluded from the act. We therefore understood, in good faith, that if something was excluded, there was no reason why someone should see that material. The excluded material is in the red binder. The rest in the yellow binder. If it is excluded, why should someone ask to see it? For example, we could be asked to share the production costs of the show, Les enfants de la télé. For those kinds of questions, the answer was automatic for us.

Even the chair of the CRTC, whom you invited to appear here, told you that there was a material legal dispute that warranted obtaining the opinion of the court. That is what I wanted to add. It was not in bad faith. Our reading, in good faith, of that section led us to conclude that the requests were excluded pursuant to the Access to Information Act.

Did you want to add something, Ms. Bertrand?

[Maryse Bertrand]

In fact, four Federal Court judges also agreed with the chair of the CRTC, that the legislation was not clear on this issue.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

The Information Commissioner went before the court 180 times to try and interpret the legislation, following all kinds of requests that came from federal entities or entities subject to the Access to Information Act. In an effort to protect our right to a clear interpretation, we found ourselves before the court.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Yesterday, were you given a clearer interpretation than that rendered by other courts?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Absolutely.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Pardon me for not being aware of all this. At this point in time, if someone files an access to information request and there is a disagreement between the two of you, because you do not believe that the information should be disclosed, does that person have no appeal body to turn to other than the court? Can that person turn to the Information Commissioner?

[Maryse Bertrand]

Yes. Furthermore, complaints that were filed with the commissioner may be resolved now that the Court of Appeal has rendered a decision.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

So normally, there is a third party?

[Maryse Bertrand]

Absolutely.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Is there usually an arbitrator?

[Maryse Bertrand]

Yes.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

In that case, I do not quite understand Mr. Boulerice's comments. Pardon me.

I am coming to my last question. We now know that the commissioner will review the requests for information that she received. If she hands down one or more decisions that do not suit you, will you go to court? Perhaps it is too soon to give an answer.

[Maryse Bertrand]

It is difficult to answer hypothetical questions. We look at the nature of the dispute, if there is one, and make a decision at that point.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

All right.

I would like to ask one final question, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

You have five seconds.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Del Mastro appears to have gotten the facts wrong before committee on several occasions. He is a good sport and normally does rather rigorous work.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

All I can say on that is perhaps the information Mr. Del Mastro had, for example regarding the cost of advertising in Sun Media newspapers, was not the information we were familiar with. Perhaps his information was somewhat dated. I am in no way presuming that Mr. Del Mastro was acting in bad faith when he provided that figure. I simply want to make sure, Madam Chair, that the figure is right.

I can tell you straightaway that it is highly uncommon for us to give an idea of the cost of an event like that one, because it is an advantage we give our competitors. If we can hold an event like that for a price like that, we do not want people to be able to take advantage of our know-how.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Thank you. Your time is up.

Mr. Butt, you have five minutes.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Good morning, Madame Bertrand and Monsieur Lacroix. Thank you very much for being here.

The CBC, predominantly through your news department, must file hundreds of FOI requests every year, as an organization, to other bodies where you're seeking to get information, I assume.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

That's the job that surely our journalists are hired to do, which is to do the best possible journalism. If access to information requests happen to be a tool for them to go deeper into a story, I assume they would, yes.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

So your expectation would be that those requests would be acted upon in a reasonable and an appropriate timeframe, when those are being requested. That would be your expectation as a client of the process, let's say.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Within the law. Yes.