Evidence of meeting #26 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rights.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Daniel Therrien  Nominee for the position of Privacy Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual
James Dorey  Executive Director, Canadian Identity Theft Support Centre
Kevin Scott  President, Canadian Identity Theft Support Centre
Tamir Israel  Staff Lawyer, Samuelson-Glushko Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic

11 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We will call the meeting to order.

We will ask those with TV cameras and microphones to leave the room, and the other journalists are welcome to stay.

Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. We're convened today pursuant to Standing Order 111.1(1) to examine the certificate of nomination of Daniel Therrien to the position of Privacy Commissioner, referred to the committee Wednesday, May 28, 2014.

We welcome Mr. Therrien.

Congratulations, Sir. We would ask you to make briefing opening remarks. We have very limited time today to spend with you, so we would ask you to keep your remarks to five minutes or so, and then we'll be opening the floor to questions from committee members.

Welcome, Sir. You have the floor.

11 a.m.

Daniel Therrien Nominee for the position of Privacy Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen members of the committee. I will try to be as brief as possible.

I am very honoured to be here today as the person nominated by the Prime Minister for the position of Privacy Commissioner.

My name has been put before you after a lengthy advertised process conducted by the government. However, I want to assure this committee that I fully understand that the position is that of an agent of Parliament and, for that reason, I am here to present my qualifications and aspirations, answer any questions you may have and hopefully demonstrate that I am worthy of your trust. If my appointment is approved, my allegiance will be to Parliament, and I will perform my responsibilities in a manner that is completely impartial and objective. I will be pleased to answer any questions you may have in that regard.

Privacy is a fundamental human right, and my career has always been about respect for human rights in the application of various government programs affecting liberty and security.

I started my career in corrections, then moved to immigration and, more recently, to public safety and national security. My resume refers to a few achievements, and I assume you may ask me later about one—the privacy principals adopted under the Beyond the Border Accord with the United States. As legal counsel to Citizenship and Immigration Canada some years ago, I was also involved in enhancing the refugee protection regime under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.

I see respect for human rights as the permanent theme in my career that should allow me to make a successful transition as ombudsman, defender and promoter of privacy rights. I would also bring to the position considerable knowledge of how government works, particularly public safety agencies, which I see as an important asset that should make me effective in my oversight role. My experience of 20 years as a government manager and senior executive would also help me exercise the leadership required as head of the Privacy Commissioner's Office.

Some say that privacy is dead, that it is an obsolete notion. I wholeheartedly reject this, and it would be a very sad day if it were true. But privacy is certainly at risk. Governments collect, analyze, use, and share much greater amounts of personal information than ever before. So do private companies. Canadians are legitimately concerned. At the same time, Canadians want government to protect their personal safety and they want easy access to the services companies provide through the Internet and other technologies. At the centre of the privacy debate is the notion of control. How much control over their information, and therefore their lives, are Canadians willing to give up in order to get the benefits they expect from government and the private sector?

Conversely, how much information should government or private companies collect without the control or consent of the individual? In order to improve privacy, one needs I think to play on the factors enhancing the control of the individual: more transparency by government and companies collecting information; more justification for collecting information without consent; more information by the Office of the Privacy Commissioner on the privacy risks faced by individuals and more security safeguards so that personal information is safe from those with malicious intent.

The goal of my actions, therefore my overall priority, would be to improve these control factors for Canadians. This does not mean that I would disregard reasonable needs of government and companies, but I would ask them tough questions to determine whether what they claim is a reasonable need is in fact just an easier or cheaper way of proceeding and whether alternatives that offer better privacy protection have been considered.

I want to acknowledge the superb work accomplished by Jennifer Stoddart and her office during her term as privacy commissioner. I intend to rely on that team to make the most effective use of the authorities conferred on the privacy commissioner, as Ms. Stoddart did so well.

On a more personal level, an immediate priority would be to lay the ground for good working relationships with civil society and stakeholders from the private sector. I realize that I am not well known outside government, and I intend to meet with interested parties by the early fall. I would of course also meet with fellow privacy commissioners from provincial jurisdictions.

In closing, I would like to touch on an issue that will be on your mind. Given my background as counsel to public safety agencies, how will I assess, from a privacy perspective, proposals to augment the investigative powers of law enforcement or national security officers?

I will of course examine whether the new power is reasonable under constitutional law, but more broadly, I will consider the question from the perspective of most citizens, who want both privacy and public safety, and not one at the expense of the other. From that perspective, I think the following questions arise. First, has the government justified the need for this new power and, more importantly, its scope? Second, has the government been transparent in the use it will make of that power, or at least as transparent as it can be without disclosing its methods to criminals? Finally, will the government be accountable for its use of that power?

I am afraid that, too often today, Canadians learn of investigative methods for which these demonstrations have not been made. If these questions are answered appropriately, I will support the new powers sought, as I think most Canadians would. If appropriate answers are not provided, I will request further clarifications.

Thank you for your attention.

I will now be happy to answer questions from members of the committee.

11:05 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Thank you very much, Mr. Therrien.

We're going to proceed directly to questions from committee members, but I will caution that these are seven-minute rounds and that the time includes the questions and the answers. I'm going to be very strict with that rule, because our time is extremely limited and I want to give an opportunity for as many questions as possible.

The answer should be roughly the same length as the question, Mr. Therrien. That is what we expect.

First, for the official opposition we have the ethics critic, Mr. Charlie Angus.

You have seven minutes, Charlie.

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Therrien, for coming and presenting yourself today.

I would echo my colleague, because we only have seven minutes and there are so many issues regarding privacy that I'd like to keep our conversations short and to the point.

The interim Privacy Commissioner who has just left, Chantal Bernier, raised concerns about the warrantless access provisions in Bill C-13, about which she said there was “a lack of accountability mechanisms”.

Would you share her belief that Bill C-13 should be split in two so that the warrantless access provisions are given further scrutiny, aside from the issues of the cyberbullying provisions?

11:05 a.m.

Nominee for the position of Privacy Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual

Daniel Therrien

Thank you for your question, Mr. Angus.

Since I'm still a public servant and this bill is presented by the Minister of Justice, I feel I'm in a bit of a sensitive position here. I think I will decline to answer questions about the bill, but I think you would have heard in the last portion of my opening remarks the kinds of questions I would ask if a bill were presented to Parliament, if and when I become Privacy Commissioner, and these questions would, I think, be relevant to the examination of the bill in question.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Okay, so you have declined to answer—

11:10 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

I'm going to interrupt you there, Mr. Angus.

Mr. Therrien, by the rules of the House of Commons, in the standing committees you don't have the right to not answer a question. You don't have the right to remain silent. I expect an answer to a question put to you.

I'm going to—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

I have a point of order.

The witness is here to talk about.... We're investigating him and deciding whether we will approve his appointment. He has raised a very important point, that he is a public servant who, at this particular point, has not been recommended by the committee. He still has to follow an act—

11:10 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

We're dealing with a point of order currently. I don't accept it.

Unless you have a specific point of order, I don't accept your intervention.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

I feel that he has answered the question, and I don't think he's here to break the law or break the rules.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

I'm simply going to say that not answering the question is not an option. You have no right to silence here. It's different from a court of law. You have to answer questions put to you, sir.

If you're applying for this very important job, I think committee members have a right to know your view on one of the important privacy issues of the day.

Mr. Angus, you didn't lose any time.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you very much.

We'll put that as not answering.

Yesterday, the information and privacy commissioners for Ontario, Alberta, and British Columbia spoke up in a letter to Parliament saying:

...Bill C-13 will entrench and possibly encourage the expansion of warrantless disclosure of private sector data to law enforcement....

Do you share their concerns?

11:10 a.m.

Nominee for the position of Privacy Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual

Daniel Therrien

I will return you, again, to the end of my opening remarks. So I think these are—

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Sorry, do you share their concerns, yes or no?

11:10 a.m.

Nominee for the position of Privacy Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual

Daniel Therrien

I think they raise very legitimate concerns, yes.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

So then I will go back to—

11:10 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

We have a point of order.

Mr. Calandra, what's your point of order?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

I've just been reading the Standing Orders with respect to the study of a point here, and I draw your attention to this. It says, with respect to the study of an appointee or nominee:

The committee, if it should call an appointee or nominee to appear pursuant to section (1) of this Standing Order, shall examine the qualifications and competence of the appointee or nominee to perform the duties of the post to which he or she has been appointed or nominated.

And that's it. We're not here to ask him about his interpretation of legislation that is before the House.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Is there any further debate on the point of order before I rule on it?

Mr. Calandra, you noted when I opened this meeting that we're here pursuant to Standing Order 111.1(1). You're quoting 111.1(2). Under 111.1(1) it says, from O'Brien and Bosc on page 1,014:

...the Standing Orders do not impose specific limits on the scope of the examination when a proposed candidate appears before the committee or on the number of sitting days that may be devoted to the appearance.

I think you're quoting from the wrong standing order, sir, so you don't have a point of order.

Mr. Angus.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm not trying to put you hard on the spot here, but there have been numerous editorials raising the question of conflict of interest with your position. So for you to say you can't answer questions on the biggest single piece of legislation that's defining privacy rights in this Parliament, that you have no opinion or that you're going to defer your opinion, I find concerning.

On the issue of Bill C-13 being split into parts, do you feel you're in a conflict of offering an opinion when it has been the opinion of the privacy commissioners across the country that the bill should be separated? If you say you want to ask “tough questions” and improve control mechanisms, will you just tell us whether you think it would be better to have that part of the bill separated?

11:10 a.m.

Nominee for the position of Privacy Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual

Daniel Therrien

I've answered generally, and I will now answer specifically since I understand that is what expected of me. I've raised the issues I would raise generally, so is the law necessary? Is it appropriate? Are there alternatives?

With respect to Bill C-13, I would say, of course, that everyone would agree with the creation of the crime of cyber intimidation that is in that bill. I would also agree that Canada must modernize laws on criminal investigations in the Internet age. But the justification for having personal information in that bill that is apparently given is that it is the equivalent of what is found in a telephone book, and my view is not—

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Okay, I'm sorry, I have to interrupt you there.

Privacy Commissioner Jennifer Stoddart has specifically pointed out that IP information is not like accessing a telephone book—

11:15 a.m.

Nominee for the position of Privacy Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual

Daniel Therrien

This is exactly where I was going.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

She says it allows the profile of citizens' activities, interests, and even their location. So do you believe that should be obtained without a warrant?

11:15 a.m.

Nominee for the position of Privacy Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual

Daniel Therrien

No, I do not. I was going to follow by saying IP addresses are much more than telephone information because they do include information of interests in websites, for instance, or location. So when I asked the general questions before, transposing this to Bill C-13, I would say there has been no demonstration yet that I have heard that such a level of personal information in an IP address is required, particularly through volunteer disclosure without warrants.