Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

So you reviewed the list of witnesses questioned by the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

I must—

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Pincince, I just want to ask you a few questions.

The Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner questioned Mr. Ben Chin, former chief of staff to the Minister of Finance; Mr. Elder Marques, former senior adviser to the Prime Minister; Mr. Mathieu Bouchard, former senior adviser to the Prime Minister on Quebec; Mr. Michael Wernick, former clerk of the Privy Council; Mr. Bill Morneau, former minister of finance; Mr. Justin To, former deputy chief of staff to the Minister of Finance; Mr. Scott Brison, former president of the Treasury Board; Ms. Katie Telford, chief of staff to the Prime Minister; Mr. Gerald Butts, former principal secretary to the Prime Minister; Mr. Neil Bruce, former chief executive officer of SNC-Lavalin, and Mr. Justin Trudeau.

Did you question one or more of these individuals?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

No, we did not question the people whose names are on that list.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

How then can you tell us that you dedicated as much time and energy to this investigation as the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner before determining there were no grounds to lay criminal charges against Mr. Trudeau, if you did not take the time to validate that information?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

We conducted our interviews according to certain parameters. Basically, we sought out witnesses that could give us information to help us establish the facts and determine if an offence was committed.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Then let’s continue along those lines, Mr. Pincince.

Did you request access to any documents whatsoever?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

We did indeed obtain documents from some witnesses.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Were documents denied to you throughout your investigation?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

I must say that we were unable to examine certain documents, given the parameters—

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Did people tell you that you could not access certain information during your investigation?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

Due to established parameters, some information was indeed redacted.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Who denied you information?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

It was Ms. Prince, who was chief of staff to the Honourable Jody Wilson‑Raybould.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

She refused to provide information to you about the investigation.

Is that right?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

I would not say she refused to provide information. I think there was information she could not disclose, according to established parameters.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

During a trial, when it’s a matter of fraud, the intention to commit fraud is what’s important. How did you come to the conclusion that the Prime Minister did not intend to commit a crime, if you did not even take the time to just ask him the question?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

As part of the interviews conducted by the RCMP, we reviewed all the information provided through various testimonies, including the report of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. Again, our strategy was to establish the facts to determine if a Criminal Code offence was committed. That is how we directed our investigation.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Pincince, you know that when the RCMP investigates a matter involving the Prime Minister, its work is closely scrutinized by reporters, Democracy Watch, by all Canadians, by politicians—

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Berthold, your time is up.

Do you have a brief answer, Mr. Pincince?

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Pincince, why botch the investigation in this case?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

Mr. Chair, we have a different mandate from that of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. We examine evidence to determine if there was a Criminal Code offence.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Sorbara, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome, Commissioner. It's good to have you here with us today. I am new to the ethics committee and working with my colleagues here. I'm trying to get up to speed on everything that's happened.

First off, just on a different tangent, I think it's worth pointing out that I was born and raised in northern British Columbia, in a place called Prince Rupert, where there is an RCMP detachment. I want to give a shout-out to all the officers who are sent there, to northern British Columbia, from all parts of Canada to provide public safety. I want to get that on the record, because the town I was born and raised in shaped many of my views today.

I'm not a lawyer like some of my colleagues, and I don't profess to be, but one question that is of very high importance to me has to do with the operational independence of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. How important is that operational independence? Specifically, the responsibility of being a member of Parliament obviously involves studying legislation, but also acting responsibly in terms of our statements, our tweets and our comments about what our public security organizations do and don't do. Whether we're talking about the CBSA, the RCMP, the York Regional Police where I live, the Vancouver Police Department or any other police department, how important is that operational independence to you?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Mr. Chair, operational independence is highly important, of course. I shared earlier that I've been in senior positions since 2016, and I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've briefed the Prime Minister or the minister for ongoing.... We don't brief them on a regular basis on the files that we're doing, even less if a file involves an elected official.