Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I'm not aware of the incident you're referring to.

As I said, this is the deputy of specialized policing services, so I'm not aware of that call. I brief up. Sometimes there might be clarity if there's an article in the media that comes out with regard to one of our investigations. Sometimes a minister will reach out asking for clarity.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Sure.

Someone who is not the Minister of Public Safety reaching out seems highly suspicious. I don't have the number for the deputy of specialized policing services, and I don't think they'd be interested in taking my call. I wonder why the Prime Minister's fixer and childhood babysitter is able to get that kind of access.

Are you investigating any contractors or subcontractors who worked on the ArriveCAN app?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

We received a complaint referring to inappropriate....

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

They were allegations of misconduct.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

It was not related to ArriveCAN. Now, with ArriveCAN, we've blended them both into one investigation.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

You're investigating ArriveCAN.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

We're investigating the totality, not ArriveCan itself.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

It's the totality. Okay.

Last week at committee, government officials said they're sufficiently suspicious of wrongdoing in the case and they're gathering documents. The RCMP is doing the same. It's sufficiently suspicious and is investigating. I just need to be clear on this.

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

Mr. Chair, to be clear, which investigation are we talking about?

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I'd love a list, but it's specifically ArriveCAN.

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

On the matter of ArriveCAN, of course we received information. We are reviewing the Auditor General's report. Of course, we'll take action as required.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The AG said that a production order would be needed to get her full files.

Are you in receipt of all the AG's files on ArriveCAN?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

Again, as far as the information the Auditor General mentioned goes, and as far as the RCMP requiring a form of judicial authorization to obtain the documentation goes, of course this is a step we'll need to assess in order to determine—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Have you taken that step? Have you undertaken that process?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

I would have to say, Mr. Chair, that right now, because we're in the process of obtaining that information, I would be reluctant to speak about whatever steps the RCMP is taking in relation to this matter or any other matter.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

You're not able to say, because it's a developing situation.

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

Again, Mr. Chair, I would have to say yes. In each of these cases, we proceed step by step. We conduct the same level of assessment and determine.... Again, our goal is not to replace the role of the Auditor General or any other body. Our role is to focus on criminal activities. That's exactly what we're doing in this and other cases.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The procurement ombudsman reported that 70% of resources were bait-and-switched in the ArriveCAN contracting. We heard the testimony of Kristian Firth from GC Strategies about forging documents, specifically résumés, in order to win government bids. These are very serious things. We've heard this now in the reports of independent officers of Parliament. Allegations of fraud, forgery, threats, intimidation, destruction of evidence, bribery and extortion, all of these things have been brought to light in this ArriveCAN scandal.

On the question of what's in the public interest, we've heard today concerns about Canadians having confidence in their institutions. With my questions about the Aga Khan issue, it seemed like it stopped short of investigating the Prime Minister. With the SNC-Lavalin scandal, it stopped short of investigating the Prime Minister. My questions today are just to make sure that we're not stopping short of getting all the answers that Canadians need.

I wonder if you have anything more to say about the totality of what you've heard on “arrive scam”. Is there an investigation?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Mr. Chair, I confirm that there is an investigation, and we're not going to comment because it's ongoing.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, sir.

Ms. Khalid, you have five minutes. Go ahead.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you again to the witnesses.

I had the opportunity to serve on NSICOP for a bit, and I really got to have those candid conversations about how the RCMP operates. I appreciated the candid nature of those conversations we were able to have to come to constructive conclusions, recommendations and findings as to how we can improve the system.

I really appreciate, Commissioner, what you had to say about cabinet confidences. Can you expand on how those cabinet confidences and that ability to make decisions impact the work that you do as an independent organization?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

The example, Mr. Chair, is what we're living right now. There is no doubt that there is a reason for cabinet confidence, but the question is to what extent. We talked about full transparency when we're running investigations, but we also talked about the parameters within which we can operate. The regulations are made in such a way that we are given the information that's available. There's a process in place to request additional information, which was refused.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

I realize that we're trying to get to better ways forward, which is why I really appreciated Mr. Green's questions about what's next and how we can prevent issues like this from arising.

My colleagues have brought up ArriveCAN. I'll give you an example. The leader of the Conservative Party sent you a letter demanding that you investigate ArriveCAN. How does that impact your independence? Are you going to be responding to that letter?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I will be responding to the letter. It's a complaint that we received and that we're investigating. Apart from the position of the individual, it's a complaint that we received. We were already looking at the initial complaint that came in and will be investigating.