Evidence of meeting #105 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Thank you, Chair.
In the RCMP assessment report from February 2021, I've identified two items that partially explain the RCMP's reluctance to continue the investigation.
You referenced this earlier, and this article says, “Ms. Wilson-Raybould herself did not think a crime was committed.” She stated that the Prime Minister's actions were inappropriate and unethical but not criminal.
Did the fact that she was still a member of Justin Trudeau's cabinet factor in that analysis?
1:05 p.m.
S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince
To be honest, Mr. Chair, I'm not exactly sure if this was a factor in our determination.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
After Dion's report, she told the RCMP that the information she read gave her cause for concern. Are you aware of that?
1:05 p.m.
S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince
That's correct, yes, Mr. Chair.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Is the RCMP in the habit of outsourcing investigatory decisions to non-investigators?
1:05 p.m.
S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince
I'm not exactly sure about the question, Mr. Chair.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
You seem to be relying upon the fact that she used these words and said she didn't believe Justin Trudeau's actions were criminal. That seemed to be a factor in your analysis. Are you saying that wasn't a factor?
1:05 p.m.
S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince
Yes, of course it was a factor, Mr. Chair.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
The question is very specific: Do you generally outsource to a citizen—a non-police citizen—to make that type of an opinion of a legal matter?
1:10 p.m.
S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince
Do you mean from the former attorney general?
1:10 p.m.
S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince
I would have to say that her testimony is important in the assessment of the overall situation.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
She was a member of the Liberal Party of Canada; of course she's going to say it's not criminal. She was hanging on to her job. Can't you see that as an issue here? She paid the price because of her refusal to follow Justin Trudeau's lead in offering the DPA.
I'll move on.
Dion's terms of reference required him to shut down the inquiry if he discovered evidence of a crime being committed. Did that weigh in your decision as well?
1:10 p.m.
S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince
Again, I would have to say, Mr. Chair, that this was not a determining factor. Again, it was based on the overall.... This is one element among a myriad.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Thank you.
The justice committee, before it was shut down by the Liberal government, interviewed five witnesses. The Ethics Commissioner interviewed 14 witnesses, yet you interviewed four witnesses. You did not interview the Prime Minister. You didn't interview anyone in his office, in the PMO or the PCO.
My last question for you is, you had the opportunity to interview Justin Trudeau and you declined, yes or no?
1:10 p.m.
S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince
What I have to say, Mr. Chair, is that this is not a yes-or-no question. What I have to say is that when we look at this, of course our purpose is to look for criminality. We need to meet that threshold before we can proceed to further steps. Again, our role—
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Everyone else had an interest in those witnesses except the RCMP.
Thank you.
I'm moving on to Mr. Cooper.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Just to clarify for the record, the RCMP could not rule out criminal wrongdoing on the part of the Prime Minister. Is that correct?
1:10 p.m.
S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince
Of course, Mr. Chair, I would have to say that until we had a chance to look at everything—
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
It's in paragraph 23 under “Conclusion and recommendation” in the investigation report, so you can confirm that.
1:10 p.m.
S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince
That's correct, Mr. Chair.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Okay. Was the RCMP hindered in its investigation when it drew the conclusion that there was insufficient evidence to further pursue the Prime Minister, including because of the refusal of the Prime Minister's personal department, the PCO, to expand the order in council?
1:10 p.m.
Commr Michael Duheme
Again, Mr. Chair, we worked within the parameters that were given to us and the regs that were given to us, and we did—
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
