Information & Ethics Committee on May 9th, 2023

[Edward Johnson]

I am.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

How is it possible that you can't confirm who the recipient is of $140,000 from your foundation? How is that possible?

[Edward Johnson]

I wasn't involved in the repayment.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

But you just—

[Edward Johnson]

I was not involved in the repayment.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Sir, you stated just a few seconds ago that it has been returned to the donor.

[Edward Johnson]

Correct.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

So, who is it?

[Edward Johnson]

I can't tell you.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You can't tell me.

[Edward Johnson]

No. As I say, I was not involved.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

It's $140,000. It's been, now, a month and a half, two months, and you haven't bothered to inquire where $140,000 in the middle of a national scandal went.

[Edward Johnson]

I was satisfied that it had gone to the donor.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

How could you be possibly satisfied that it went to the donor? How?

Who did you talk to?

[Edward Johnson]

I talked to our counsel and to people in the foundation involved in repaying it, repaying the donation to the donor.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Is that donor in Canada? Is that donor in Beijing? Is it the China Cultural Industry Association? Is it Millennium Golden Eagle International (Canada) Inc.?

You used some very specific language in your opening statement in which you referred to a donation coming from a Chinese Canadian entity. What are you referring to there?

[Edward Johnson]

I'm basing that on the testimony of Mr. Rosenberg and on the information that's come to me through our counsel and through my colleagues on the board.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Johnson and Mr. Cooper.

Ms. Hepfner, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.

There are 16 minutes left before the vote.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Johnson, for being here to answer our questions today.

So far in this study at this committee, we've learned from Pascale Fournier, Morris Rosenberg and Alexandre Trudeau that the foundation is not a partisan organization, that staff are not selected or screened based on partisan background, and that no one in the organization lobbied to participate in political events.

They also confirmed that the foundation was never pressured to do any Canada-China conferences, that the association that made the donation never asked that any conferences be done, that the foundation never felt an obligation to respond on Canada-China relations as a result of the donation, that there was never any intervention to choose academics from China, and that there was no interference in the operation of the foundation.

We have learned that the foundation had no relationship with the government, that neither Madam Fournier nor Mr. Rosenberg nor Mr. Trudeau had any business or political relationship with the Prime Minister or the Prime Minister's staff. In fact, to quote Madam Fournier, the Prime Minister “was not invited to” and did not receive any documentation from “our membership meetings or our board of directors or governance committee meetings. He did not receive invitations or materials of any kind.”

Do you agree with those statements?

[Edward Johnson]

I do.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you.

We've heard from all three witnesses so far in this study that there has been no foreign interference in this case. We heard from Mr. Trudeau that there was no intent “to influence the Justin Trudeau government by a donation to the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation”, that there was no mystery “around the identity of the donors or their affiliation”, and that there was nothing “illegitimate about [his] signing of the donation contract”. He said that there were no “irregularities around the issuance of the charitable receipt”, no inappropriate or unusual instructions from the donor to the foundation, no refusal on the part of certain board members to recuse themselves from an investigation of the donation, no legal advice from the foundation's lawyers that certain board members had conflicts of interest and that governance charges were required, and that the foundation did not seek to influence the government of Justin Trudeau or even had any connection with the government of Justin Trudeau.

Do you agree with all those statements, as well, sir?

[Edward Johnson]

Yes, I do. To the best of my knowledge, that is correct.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you.

In the last meeting, I asked Alexandre Trudeau if any relationship exists between the foundation and the Trudeau government. Mr. Trudeau responded:

There never has been. No. It's an academic institution that does scholarship work.

...there is the relation to the ministry of innovation, as it's now called. As I remember it, it was the industry department when we started. It's a reporting duty, which we do. All of those are available...but that's a civil service relationship monitoring the contract that was granted to the foundation at its creation to administer these scholarships, fellowships and mentorships.

That's the relationship. There is no political relationship and there never has been.

Do you agree with that as well?

[Edward Johnson]

I do indeed.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Sir, are you having trouble hearing me with the chatter going on across the table?