Evidence of meeting #78 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bains.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:35 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Absolutely.
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Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
Mr. Bains, as well, took a proactive approach in his reaching out to both your offices. Would that be correct?
4:35 p.m.
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes.
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Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
If we go back in history it does happen. We have cases that come up.
Baker McKenzie garnered several contracts with Global Affairs during the Harper government years. One contract was valued at about $285,000 while Peter MacKay was minister. He's been a partner with the firm since 2015 and was the minister of foreign affairs.
Did Mr. MacKay check with your offices in 2016, when he took on that role at Baker McKenzie, before joining as partner?
4:35 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I would not know. I was not there. I'm sorry, but I can't answer that question.
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Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
Would it be assumed that he would have checked? Would it be the proper practice to check at that time?
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Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
The office is proactive in reaching out to people when we know they are leaving office, and it's not necessarily always the other way around. I really can't answer the question of whether, in that case, he would have....
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
If he were minister of foreign affairs up until 2015 and involved with a $285,000 contract, and then joined a legal firm in 2016 after leaving office, based on the standards that we have today, would he be in compliance?
4:35 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I think it's probably more an answer for.... Having a contract is not lobbying.
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Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
He was a partner in the firm. The contract was secured by the firm that he, then, joined a year later.
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Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
On our side, essentially the public office holder has to have had direct and significant official dealings with the entity. It doesn't mean whether a contract was given to that organization. It's whether the minister at the time had had direct and significant official dealings with that organization.
I cannot comment on the specifics of this case. However, in general, this is how the rules are applied. The individual has to have had direct and significant official dealings.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
As a rule of thumb the guidelines are in place and they're very clear. Would you say, in terms of what we're discussing today about Mr. Bains, that he took this proactive step in checking with both of your offices. He was past the cooling-off period. Would we say that, maybe, some of the discussion here is a little bit of the cart before the horse in terms of the concerns that are here?
4:35 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
When I'm asked to appear before a committee, I'm here.
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Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Yes, it is.
Thank you.
Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for six minutes.
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Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Ms. Bélanger. You're a familiar presence here.
I would also like to thank you, Ms. Robinson-Dalpé, for appearing here today.
I have questions for both of you, but I'll begin with you, Ms. Bélanger.
You recently published the revised version of the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct in theCanada Gazette, which contains quite a few new features. Since the publication of this version, I can see that a number of parliamentarians have misunderstood some of the changes.
I'd like you to talk about sponsored travel.
4:35 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I had to regulate sponsored trips from lobbyists, because it would have been completely inconsistent of me to say that a gift of over $40 could create a sense of obligation, but not a trip worth several thousand dollars. I therefore introduced a rule that prohibits a registered lobbyist from lobbying anyone to whom they have offered sponsored travel. In other words, an organization listed in the registry cannot offer a gift to a public office holder they are lobbying, or intending to lobby.
Of the 28 organizations and companies that provided sponsored travel last year, only six are in the registry. That means many organizations and corporations will be able to continue to offer sponsored trips without the need for me to intervene.
However, the organizations and corporations whose names are in the registry of lobbyists and who want to provide sponsored travel will be able to continue to do so, and it will be possible for you to continue to accept it. The only requirement is that they contact our office, because there has to be a gap between when the travel occurs and when the lobbying occurs afterwards, to ensure that you do not have a sense of obligation towards them. That's because if you've received a trip worth several thousand dollars from an organization or a corporation, you are probably more likely to answer the phone when they call.
4:40 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
The intent is to keep people from feeling indebted, as it were.
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Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
It would appear that the feeling remains.
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Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
If a foreign organization that is not registered in Canada offers such an invitation, that's outside your area of responsibility, is it not?
4:40 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Absolutely. It has to be an organization or company whose name is in the registry. The code applies to registered lobbyists.
4:40 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
All right.
Ms. Robinson-Dalpé, I'm going to continue with you on the same topic.
If an organization whose name is in the registry of lobbyists nevertheless decides to offer sponsored travel to a parliamentarian, as Ms. Bélanger just described, could that be a problem for the parliamentarian?