Finance Committee on March 10th, 2009

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Well, I knew what you were going to say, Mr. Wallace. I wouldn't put that over to you.

With that, perhaps I can put the question on the pension guarantee fund to the Hon. Mr. Peters.

[Douglas Peters]

We may indeed; the Ontario government has a pension guarantee fund. They probably look after far more pensions than the federal government does.

That's a question that I think members of Parliament should carefully consider, and carefully consider in relation to the pensions that are carried now by the Superintendent of Financial Institutions.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, colleagues--

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Mr. Chair, I just have a request.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Yes, Mr. Kramp.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

I'm wondering if it would be possible for us to ask Mr. Siegel to provide to this committee, in writing, a potential sectoral breakdown in terms of their portfolio so that we could have an idea of where their funds are going.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Yes. Perhaps you can send me an e-mail on that. As chair, I can send that to Mr. Siegel.

For any further follow-up, members are always free to ask through the chair.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

To the witnesses, thank you very much for your presentations and your responses here today. We're now going to excuse you.

Members, we have one motion on the agenda for today. We must finish it by 11 o'clock, as there's a committee right here afterwards.

The motion is from Monsieur Laforest. We're going to ask him to move the motion and explain the rationale. Then, after one speaker from each party, we'll have a vote.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The motion is very clear:

That the Finance Committee devote one session to examining the methods used by the Canada Revenue Agency to calculate the taxable income of tip employees in Quebec.

Following numerous representations, it was concluded that there are 20,000 tip workers in Quebec. Contrary to what happens in the other provinces, a solution has been developed that is unique to Quebec. In the past few years, tip workers in Quebec from the restaurant and hotel industries in particular have begun to be harassed. They are asked, from a more or less representative sample... CRA officials went to some restaurants and reviewed credit card records. They found that tipping varied between 14% and 20%.

They wanted to apply a calculation to all the workers in these restaurants. For example, in a Pacini restaurant in Val-d'Or, it was found, from checking the credit cards, that people paid an average tip of 16%. Tip workers in that restaurant are going to have to declare 16% of the restaurant's total revenue as their income. It is well known, though, that people leave bigger tips when they pay by credit card. This is really not the best way to proceed. The Government of Quebec had already agreed that 8% was a reasonable average. But now that percentage is being exceeded. Workers are being harassed. Even the Minister of Revenue agreed that this was an unfair way of doing things.

This is really prejudicial to these people. They also have to pay the bills of people who leave without paying, breakage, meals dropped on the ground, etc. Their situation is tough. We think that hearing these workers' representatives might give us a better idea of their situation, which is special in Quebec and which to me seems inequitable and unfair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Merci.

We'll go to Mr. Pacetti, please.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The content of the motion has some substance, but it is no different from what the CRA is doing itself. We've received many complaints from people who are being audited under criteria set by the auditor.

Since we have to conduct a very serious examination and we don't have the time to hear CRA officials, we could write them to ask how they calculate tipping percentages. Then we could see later whether we should hold meetings on this subject.

For the time being, we're against this motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Mr. Wallace, please.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm encouraging the members from this side to vote against the motion. Not that this isn't a serious issue--obviously it is--but we have other more pressing issues with the studies we have in front of us.

In addition, being a member of the committee for three years, I recall that CRA comes at least annually to talk about the work they're doing. That would be an excellent opportunity for our Bloc members to question the CRA about the issues regarding tipping income for workers in Quebec. I think it can be handled in a different way than setting aside a meeting for it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Very quickly, I have Monsieur Carrier and then Mr. Thibeault, and then I'd like to go to the vote.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I understand the arguments being made and I can foresee how heavy our upcoming sessions are going to be.

Awhile ago, two motions were presented concerning self-employed computer workers and people doing postdoctoral studies. The parliamentary secretary organized a meeting for us with the minister and his senior officials in order to examine the problem. We decided that, if this meeting did not produce any results, the question could be submitted at a later date to the committee.

If you agree, Mr. Wallace could arrange with Mr. Menzies to add this element since we've already had one meeting with senior officials from the CRA. They agree that a meeting should be organized with the parties concerned in order to find a solution.

Our goal is to find a solution to the problem. If the committee could be dispensed from this duty, it could be included with the other two studies in respect of which Mr. Menzies has kindly facilitated a meeting with the self-employed computer workers.

Could Mr. Wallace arrange this?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I'll hear from Mr. Thibeault.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

I'll be very quick.

Recently, I had a town hall in my riding relating to the economic downturn. We were talking about some of the mining layoffs we were having. Of course, there was a strong contingent of retail workers who showed up, and also tip workers.

So if this motion were to move forward, I would suggest that it not just include Quebec, but that it be more broad to include other ridings, because we're all being affected by this.

If you're deferring this to another time, that would be my suggestion on this motion.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

The motion has been moved by the mover, so the motion is up for discussion.

I don't know whether Mr. Wallace has arranged a meeting with the minister or not.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I can't make the arrangement, but I'll make the commitment to my Bloc colleagues that I will talk to the parliamentary secretary about the same process that happened previously and see if they're interested in arranging a meeting. But I personally can't do it.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

In the meantime, we could suspend the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Suspend the motion? We can withdraw the motion.

Do we have unanimous consent to—

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I withdraw it for the time being.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

It is withdrawn for the time being. We'll come back to it as necessary.