Evidence of meeting #13 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was banks.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Julie Dickson  Superintendent, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions Canada
Eric Siegel  President & Chief Executive Officer, International Trade, Export Development Canada
Douglas Peters  Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
Richard Gauthier  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Automobile Dealers Association
Michael Hatch  Chief Economist, Canadian Automobile Dealers Association
Arthur Donner  Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

10:05 a.m.

President & Chief Executive Officer, International Trade, Export Development Canada

Eric Siegel

It could limit our options.

It would make it very difficult for EDC to play any significant role in the domestic economy. That's important, because we have a number of corporates, at all sizes, who have short-term growing requirements. In many cases they have bank credit, but they need additional credit to fill gaps. It could be because foreign banks or non-bank facilities are no longer there and they need some additional credit. An example of this would be what EDC did with Nova Chemicals recently, coming in to fill a $100 million or $150 million financing facility to allow them to get over a short-term liquidity problem to be able to continue to function. A number of companies like that are approaching EDC. The legislation would make it easier for us to do that as it would make it possible for us to bring our capacity to the benefit of the private sector in credit insurance and in surety insurance and the like. It is an important set of powers that would limit what EDC could do if it is in power.

Thank you.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON

Thank you.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Kramp.

We'll go to Mr. Pacetti, please.

March 10th, 2009 / 10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming today.

I have a couple of quick questions. I want to return to the purpose of these hearings. We're here to determine the credit availability, so I have a couple of quick questions for Mr. Gauthier. The Canadian secured credit facility is still at the consultation process. How are we going to make sure the money gets out? Who is going to determine whether the borrower of these funds is going to be creditworthy? Who is going to determine all that, or are we just going to be in trouble once the $12 billion is lent? Is there any oversight? Is there going to be a mechanism whereby the money is going to be lent out quite rapidly?

10:10 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Automobile Dealers Association

Richard Gauthier

That's an excellent question, and thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to put that on the record. We actually attended a meeting on Friday, March 6. It was an all-day meeting at which there were 125 participants representing BDC. BDC has been charged by the Government of Canada to oversee and handle this project with regard to the Canadian secured credit facility.

The C.D. Howe Institute has been retained to gather information from all of the various stakeholders, including BDC, Industry Canada, and industry stakeholders in order to put in place the kinds of mechanisms you are suggesting now need to be in place. So there will definitely be oversight. The government has taken very aggressive steps in making sure these funds are not only properly utilized but that the creditworthiness of the paper that will be considered for purchase is as was presented in the initial presentations we made.

The concept will only deal with a triple-A credit paper, which, after analysis, has less than a 1% of 1% default rate. And there are built-in profit margins there that will benefit the Government of Canada.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thanks. We're limited in our time. Thank you.

Another quick question is that our dealerships are also lacking in financing, but that's going to be a separate type of financing. Credit will be available to people who purchase the new vehicles being sold. But how about the existing inventory now being held by dealerships? How will they--

10:10 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Automobile Dealers Association

Richard Gauthier

The primary intention of the $12 billion fund will be to render liquid the captive finance companies and the private finance companies that supply the dealership network so that they in turn can help these dealers support their inventories at more competitive rates than those being asked for by banks right now.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Okay, so that will solve some of the--

10:10 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Automobile Dealers Association

Richard Gauthier

That is where the money will go.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Mr. Siegel, just quickly, EDC is not necessarily a lending institution. It lends some money, but you also provide insurance. Is that correct?

10:10 a.m.

President & Chief Executive Officer, International Trade, Export Development Canada

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

One of the questions I have concerns the $5 billion that's going to be available for your corporation as well as the BDC. I understand all the statistics with the number of extra files and the number of extra clients you've had. But I just think we're trading what in French we call quatre 30 sous pour une piastre. We're just trading four quarters for a dollar, because all you're doing is taking the place of some of the Canadian banks that don't want to take that risk, and it's not really injecting money into the system. That's my feeling, and correct me if I'm wrong. All that's happening is that you're replacing four quarters with a dollar because you're just shifting the risk from the Canadian banks or the other banks--they don't necessarily have to be Canadian banks--and you're taking over that security or that risk.

10:10 a.m.

President & Chief Executive Officer, International Trade, Export Development Canada

Eric Siegel

Let me cover a couple of things with respect to that question. The first is that yes, EDC is a lender and EDC is an insurer. I think sometimes people gravitate to EDC's financing capability and don't understand what insurance actually does.

Insurance is actually a financing-enabling instrument. So, for instance, when we insure receivables for a Canadian company selling abroad, that means security for banks, and banks can then lend against that. The more insurance there is, the higher they will lend against the receivable.

EDC provides bonding. When we provide bonding support, we guarantee the bank. We take the bank off risk. That allows the bank to redirect that credit to something else, so it liberates money so they can--

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

My feeling is that it's not being redirected--I'm sorry to interrupt--but it's just being stopped, and EDC and BDC have to do the heavy lifting. That seems to be what I'm hearing.

10:10 a.m.

President & Chief Executive Officer, International Trade, Export Development Canada

Eric Siegel

In the example I gave you of Nova Chemicals, we stepped up for $100 million, but we were insisting that the banks put additional money into the deal. And they did. They put an additional $50 million into the deal. In that particular case, we approached it as being part of the solution but not the solution, not displacing other players.

So we are trying to both maintain the banks with what they're doing, as the first point, and--

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

I just want to make sure that this is actually what's happening, that you are asking the banks to--

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Pacetti. You will have another turn.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Monsieur Bernier.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Maxime Bernier Conservative Beauce, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. Donner. A little earlier, you praised the idea of using government spending to stimulate the economy. You said, while reading your presentation notes, that, if we consider the multiplier effect, it is more important for government to stimulate spending than to cut personal and business tax. You also said we have to be afraid of deflation in the current situation.

Did I understand your comments correctly?

10:15 a.m.

Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Arthur Donner

Thank you very much for your question. The only thing is that we're not apologizing for the government; that part I won't accept.

It's quite clear to us, and it's overwhelmingly evident in the evidence, that the spending multipliers--as in the bang for the government buck--are much larger than the tax multipliers.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Maxime Bernier Conservative Beauce, QC

Thank you for clarifying because, when the government spends money, we must ask where the money comes from. The money comes from companies and individuals. So we have to look at what we don't see. We talk about a credit crisis. If the government takes its citizens' and entrepreneurs' money to stimulate the economy, it may destroy some jobs. Some entrepreneurs could use this money for productive projects.

I am more in favour of cutting taxes, since this is what means individuals will have money in their pockets, which they can spend or save. If they save, that will create wealth because the money will be available for borrowing by entrepreneurs to invest in projects that create jobs. When we cut taxes, the money doesn't just fly away in the sky. The money stays in the economy and is available. If we cut my taxes and I use this money to pay off a debt that I owed to one of my fellow citizens, the money will remain available and my fellow citizens can decide to spend it or save it. I think that the creation of wealth comes from productive investments, not from spending.

If spending created wealth, many countries in the third world would be rich today. Canada is a rich country because of the investments it has made and because its tax rates are very low.

History may show that I'm right. During the Great Depression, the American government spent and the U.S. federal government cut its spending by two thirds between 1945 and 1948. Spending by the U.S. federal government was $92 billion in 1945 and it fell to $29 billion in 1948. The federal government got out of the way and this accounted for a cut in public spending of 70% within a few years. This is what enabled them to get out of the Great Depression.

So I do not support your logic, which claims that the best way of getting out of the present crisis is to spend and, the more we spend, the further we'll get out of the crisis. I think we need balanced spending and that is what our government is doing. We have spent on infrastructures, which will be there for many years and will benefit future generations. I'm talking about roads, bridges and tunnels. These infrastructures will be around for future generations. We were also responsible when we decreed a permanent income tax cut so that Canadians would have some money in their pockets.

I don't think that irresponsible deficits are the solution to the current crisis. I think that we have to have an accurate vision of the situation. This is why we'll run a deficit for a very short time before getting back to a budget surplus as soon as possible. The solution won't come from the economists but rather from the people. The economy is all Canadians who spend and save day after day. It's very hard to predict Canadians' behaviour.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay, Mr. Bernier.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Maxime Bernier Conservative Beauce, QC

If I may continue…

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Bernier, you have 30 seconds.