Finance Committee on April 23rd, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I'm certainly open to that, if that's okay with members of this committee.

Mr. Mulcair.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

I think it is a great idea to have the joint committee, and, frankly, 24 is not the end of the world.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You prefer 24.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Yes. Let people make their own logistics. They don't need to have the whole group the whole time. I don't think we should start micromanaging that. Simply say it's a joint committee. That means that members of both committees can show up and we'll stretch the table. I come from a family of 10 kids, so it has never intimidated me to have a lot of people around the table.

[An hon. member]

Now we know.

[An hon. member]

That explains everything.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You should never reveal biographical information.

Mr. Wallace, please.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm one of the fortunate ones to be on both Industry and Finance. I think I might be the only one, so I'm actually quite in favour of a joint meeting, and I'm flexible on the numbers. I think slightly bigger than 12 and maybe not all 24 would be required, and we would be able, as members, to come at different times and participate.

We have a study going on in banking in the Senate, and then we're going to have them come to our committee, and then the industry committee.... I simply think it is a good use of time, ours and theirs, so I am in favour of you and the chair of the other committee working out a possibility of a joint committee. I do not think you can separate the issues of debit cards and credit cards, the fees the merchants are paying, the fees the consumers are paying. It's all going to be one big item at the end of the day. I think it is better for parliamentarians that there be one report, and that's what would come out of this.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

I have Mr. Pacetti, Mr. Kramp, and then Monsieur Laforest.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Let me start with a question. When are you proposing the meetings again?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Because Industry is committed until May 7, it would be May 12 and May 14, or we could do it May 26 and May 28.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Initially, that would be four meetings.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

It would be four meetings, yes.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I would be in favour of what Mr. McKay proposed if we were to have 20 meetings, but if we're to limit it to four, I don't have a problem with the joint meetings. Then within our own parties we will decide who's to be in attendance. Whether it will be 12 or 24, as Mr. Mulcair said, we'll simply stretch the table.

If we decide to have 20 meetings, I think it would be an inefficient use of our time. I have no problem with a joint committee. If it's limited to four meetings, then I think it's fine. But if we stretch it out it becomes a problem in terms of logistics.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Mr. Kramp.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm in concurrence with Mr. McKay. I think 24 is unworkable. Each party can figure out who they wish to have there; otherwise we'll be down to a few minutes per witness. That won't be adequate if we wish to balance that. So let's just leave it at the normal committee structure for witnesses and how many minutes we have: seven down to five, etc. Each party can work out its own internal representation.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Monsieur Laforest.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I agree with what Mr. Kramp just said. A committee of 24 could really be too much. Even the witnesses would get lost in the shuffle. That is not the idea. We want to be effective and show that we are serious. You said there would be four afternoon meetings. Will they all be held between 3:30 and 5:30 p.m.?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

My proposal is to have a meeting on May 12 from 9 to 11 in the normal Finance slot, from 3:30 to 5:30 in the normal Industry slot, and then on May 14 for the same times.

We're not that far apart. We have five Conservatives on the side now. Perhaps we could have six to eight. The Conservatives don't have to send 10. The Bloc could send three and the NDP could have two or three.

I don't think we're that far apart, frankly.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

So, on the 12th, we will meet in the morning and the afternoon, and on the 14th, the morning and afternoon, once again. There will be two meetings per day.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask that, both for this study and for other future studies, the clerk send us the list of witnesses suggested by the other parties. We have received this kind of thing in the past. It gives us a chance to see exactly who will be appearing, in order to avoid inviting people twice. In terms of our effectiveness, I think that would be helpful.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Sure. And in discussion with the researchers, there was thought of having the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Retail Council of Canada--those who have real concerns about the credit card and the merchant discount rates. We could have the financial institutions, and companies like Moneris that are split off. Then we could have Visa, Mastercard, and maybe American Express. Those are four logical meeting groups.

That's a valid suggestion and we'll do that.

Mr. Pacetti.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

My suggestion is that on Tuesday between 11 and 1, if possible, we have our steering committee with the industry committee and discuss the logistics on the makeup of the committee. We can also discuss witnesses and how we're going to structure them together. If we need to we can have another steering committee on the Thursday.

We have enough time to plan it, but I think we should get going on it sooner than later.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

So on Tuesday, April 28, the steering committee will discuss witness groupings.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

First we can discuss logistics--whether we'll go with 24 or 12. We have to see what Industry thinks. Then we can discuss witnesses once we have a format. Even chairing the committee is going to be an issue. It's nice to say you're going to co-chair, but that means the Conservatives would have to be okay with the fact—

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Everyone knows that Finance is the most important committee.