Evidence of meeting #70 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hst.
A recording is available from Parliament.
7:25 p.m.
Brian Ernewein General Director, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Good evening.
I'm Brian Ernewein, general director, on the legislation side, in the tax policy branch at Finance.
7:25 p.m.
Pierre Mercille Chief, Sales Tax Division, GST Legislation, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
My name is Pierre Mercille and I am chief of GST Legislation at the Sales Tax Division.
7:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Thank you all for being with us here this evening.
Colleagues, we'll go through this clause by clause, and I'll ask for any discussion or amendment on that specific clause. As you know, we postponed discussion of clause 1, so we move to clause 2.
Mr. Pacetti.
7:30 p.m.
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Yes, a general question, just to hear from the bureaucrats, and very short. I don't want to prolong this.
In terms of history, is this a bill that is normally required for harmonization? All we're really asking is that the provinces accept the harmonization. If this bill did not go through...what happened in the past? Was this bill implemented prior to the agreements with the Atlantic provinces?
7:30 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Yes, the bill is required because the HST is imposed under federal law. There was a bill in 1997, when the Atlantic provinces harmonized.
7:30 p.m.
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
So the bill was presented prior to the negotiations, or was it subsequent to negotiations?
7:30 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
It was presented after the agreements were negotiated with the provinces.
7:30 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
I'm not quite sure of the process, or if Mr. Mulcair is going to move that amendment, but at some point I thought it would be interesting to ask the officials about this aboriginal issue we've just been hearing about, and what their view of it is.
7:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
That perhaps would be a good place to start.
Do any of you want to comment? I think you heard the amendment as read by Mr. Mulcair.
7:30 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Mr. Chair, would you like comments on the amendment or would you like comments on the overall issue the first nations raised?
7:30 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Comments on both? Okay.
7:30 p.m.
Bloc
Daniel Paillé Bloc Hochelaga, QC
I do not believe an amendment has been tabled. I, for one, have not seen any.
7:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
I think the general will of the committee—I'm sensing there may be some resistance—is to hear about the issue that was raised here tonight with us. That's what I'm proposing to do.
Is there any objection to hearing generally about the issue that was presented tonight by the chiefs?
Monsieur Paillé.
7:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Okay.
Right now, we'll hear generally on the issue that was presented by the chiefs to the committee.
7:30 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
I'll start off, Mr. Chair, by saying that obviously this bill is presented to implement harmonization for Ontario and B.C. So it's the choice these provinces have made, and this is a framework bill that allows the implementation of that choice at the end of day. In particular with respect to Ontario--I guess there was a B.C. first nation here too--how the tax is designed is for Ontario and B.C. to make those decisions at the end of the day, and whatever facility they wish to accommodate in that respect is for the Ontario and B.C. governments to do. That in essence I think answers the overarching question.
I'll just comment on whether or not there was a duty to consult. I myself met with Ontario first nations, and we have met with them and tried to understand their perspective, tried to explain the HST and how it would work, and provide as much information as possible so that there could be an understanding of how the HST was going to work. We also offered very clearly to meet as many times as was necessary to understand how the implementation of the HST was going to work.
A duty to consult arises out of a treaty or aboriginal right. The exemption that exists is a statutory exemption. It's section 87 of the Indian Act, which is not an aboriginal or treaty right. Canada has never recognized that these kinds of exemptions are a treaty or aboriginal right. It's a statutory exemption, and as a result the formal duty to consult is not triggered. However, despite that we have been meeting and trying to exchange views and understanding of where the aboriginal first nations of Ontario are coming from.
7:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
We're just having a general discussion and we'll take questions on this. I'll take as many questions as I get from members.
I have Mr. Mulcair and then Mr. McCallum.
7:35 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
I am intrigued. Who told you that this does not trigger a duty to consult? On what authority are you making that assertion? I am absolutely dumbfounded. I cannot believe that an officer with such an important department could make such an assertion, in light of the very clear rulings handed down by the Supreme Court. You cannot exempt yourself from your constitutional obligations by simply inventing other ones that suit you better.
The legislation, the Constitution and the Supreme Court are clear. You cannot say that this does not apply because it's in a statute. Over time, what is included in our laws becomes part of guaranteed rights. What are you basing yourself on to make such a statement? I don't understand. I have never heard such a statement.
7:35 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
I will ask Annie Carrier to answer your question, because she is well acquainted with this area. She works at the Sales Tax Branch.
7:35 p.m.
Annie Carrier Chief, First Nations Taxation Section, Intergovernmental Tax Policy, Evaluation and Research Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
I'm Annie Carrier. I'm the principal manager of the aboriginal tax policy section within the Department of Finance.
7:35 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
I asked my question in French; perhaps you could respond in French.