Finance Committee on Nov. 1st, 2010

[Pauline Worsfold]

Isn't that supposed to be my question?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

You deal with the government; you make these requests. It's logical what you've laid out. There's evidence; other countries have done this. What do you guess? Take a wild stab in the dark as to why the government resists this.

[Pauline Worsfold]

I think because it's a multi-jurisdictional issue. That is the biggest challenge, because the federal, the provinces, and the territories all have to agree. I would say that is one of the largest barriers at this point in time. I think with bulk purchasing, doing things.... In Alberta I know we have done that. Instead of each jurisdiction buying their own medications, they've gone to portions of the province doing bulk buying in order to drive costs down. But I think it's multi-jurisdictional.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Brison, please, for a five-minute round.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thanks to each of you for your presentations.

It struck me, both on the health care side and on the education side, that the repeated theme is around the demographic shift and the importance of us building public policy that will prepare Canadians for the shift, both economically and socially—because of the impact on our productivity, when currently 44% of Canadians don't participate in the labour market. That figure will rise to 57% by 2026.

I'd like to start on the education side. Right now our policies are built around someone getting an education at community college or university, graduating, and then going into the workforce. We really have very little in terms of public policy beyond that. What should we be doing in terms of building public policy for higher education, in terms of the capacity to educate, re-educate, train, and retrain throughout one's life in order to adapt for these shifts that are going to be upon us? I'd be interested in your thoughts in terms of some of those long-term policies.

[James Knight]

I find learning is absolutely critical in a world that changes so quickly and in an economy where we really can't predict what the jobs of tomorrow will be.

One of the things that colleges do, I think reasonably well, is keep in touch with employers and try to stay on top of trends. In this respect, cooperation with Human Resources and Skills Development Canada is really critical. At the end of the day, the reality is that in this time of economic stress, our partners, the provinces, typically are reducing funding when really they should be increasing it quite dramatically. It's an area of provincial jurisdiction, yet the federal government historically has played a very important role in times of difficulty. My submission is that it is now a time of difficulty, and in this field we need stronger engagement with the provinces, civil society, and employers. Employers, particularly, are already telling us—and we heard it moments ago—that their future is bleak. They do not know where they will find their workers of the future. They do not see them coming.

[Paul Brennan, Vice-President, International Partnerships, Association of Canadian Community Colleges]

I'd like to add just one other point. I think some fiscal incentives to companies that would encourage them to free up their personnel to be able to upgrade their skills and reward them for doing so would be an enlightened measure. Quebec has done this to a certain extent in terms of a tax that encourages training, but I think we need to make it easier and encourage our businesses to upgrade the people they already have.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

We do have some exclusively federal tools, like EI, for instance, and the federal tax system, which can be used to provide greater capacity.

I appreciate it. Also, of course, Acadia University is a great member of CASA.

[Spencer Keys]

Now, to steal the thunder away from an Acadian....

I would say there are two quick things that immediately come to mind. One thing is part-time student loans. The federal government does provide those, but they're not very good. Certainly, there was a former director of the Canada student loan program who didn't understand how people even got to the part-time student loans because economically it made more sense to go to the bank.

The second one is something as basic as a car. If you have a car, that's counted against how much of a loan you can get. The average car is more valuable than the total amount of loan you can earn, so if you own a car, you can't really get anything.

These are just a couple of examples of the kinds of policies that could help people who are already in the workforce who need to have a more flexible learning arrangement.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Okay. I appreciate that.

This is a question in terms of the home as a centre for health care and the movement beyond the hospital-focused care and the home. What kind of public policy should we be introducing in terms of EI for family caregivers, and also potentially through the tax system, family caregiver tax credits? What should we be doing?

[Dr. Judith Shamian]

There were a couple of recommendations that I discussed with the committee when I was here two weeks ago, and they looked at several things. Under the ceiling of tax rebate, currently if you earn more than $18,000 you are unable to claim any of the caregiver expenses. Well, $18,000 doesn't take you anywhere.

The other issue of discussion has been around pensions. If you are taking time off for caregiving functions, you are really compromising the pension levels. We already have a model in child care and other areas where that can be attended to.

Overall, as we look at retaining older workers, we need to look at what kinds of tax systems we can put in place in order to make sure they stay in the workplace longer and we continue to be a productive society, in health care and otherwise.

So the whole notion of health human resource planning, which includes older workers, family caregivers, including voluntarism, all of those areas that build into health care, needs to be examined from the financial and other perspectives.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Sorry, we're about a minute over time.

Monsieur Carrier.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

I would like to point out certain problems related to the division of powers between the federal government and provincial governments. I will begin with the Canadian Federation of Nurses Unions.

Ms. Worsfold, in your first recommendation, you call on the government to “establish a basis for federal leadership in the creation of a national universal pharmacare plan”. Such a system has been in place in Quebec for a few years, and it works very well. Also, at the beginning of your presentation, you said that Quebec's nurses unions are not part of your association.

I was wondering if you are at least familiar with Quebec's system and if that is the model you would like to implement across the country. You said you represent 138,000 nurses in all provinces. You are hearing the same story from across the country. Have the nurses asked for the creation of a pharmacare program in their respective provinces? Although health care is a matter of provincial jurisdiction, are you asking the federal government to impose such a system on these unwilling provinces because the nurses asked them and they refused? You are proposing that the federal government interfere in an area that does not fall under its jurisdictions.

I wonder what your thoughts are on that.

[Pauline Worsfold]

I'm not intimately familiar with the pharmacare program in Quebec. We do hear from our members across Canada. You're right, the nurses in each of the provinces, through their provincial unions, speak to the Canadian Federation of Nurses Unions. I also said at the beginning that we are “sans Quebec” for now, as we are in ongoing discussions with the nurses in Quebec about joining the Canadian Federation of Nurses Unions. We have a good liaison relationship right now with FIQ, the nurses and health professionals union in Quebec.

I'm also aware that B.C. and Ontario have some type of health plan currently. But again, I'm not the expert; I'm a nurse, a working nurse. But our experts, in this book on universal pharmacare, The Economic Case for Universal Pharmacare, and the author, Marc-André Gagnon, have a pretty strong opinion about being able to do this across all jurisdictions.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I am surprised to hear you say that you did not know about Quebec's pharmacare program. You said you have a good relationship with the Quebec nurses union. You are proposing something that you did not know already exists in Quebec. It is a service that Quebec decided to provide. In my opinion, this clearly shows a lack of respect for provincial jurisdictions in the area of health care. The federal government wants to interfere in this jurisdiction.

I have one minute left. I would like to ask another question on a different topic. My question is for the representatives of the Association of Canadian Community Colleges. I noticed more or less the same problem regarding your recommendation on page 3. You say you want to, and I quote:

Launch a national dialogue with provincial...governments, educational institutions,...to develop an action plan to increase employment participation rates...

As you know, that is also a matter of provincial jurisdiction and the provinces each have their own plans. I assume there are education ministries in each province. Is it the federal government that will negotiate this?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay, and your question is?

[James Knight]

Thank you for the question.

The federal government has had many vehicles for participating in education that have been accepted and welcomed by all provinces. Recently, Quebec welcomed the knowledge infrastructure program and the college and community innovation program, and the province participates in federal financing arrangements for students—and of course the aboriginal file is a heavily federal file. There was as well an increase of $800 million recently to the federal health and social transfer targeting education, and that money was welcomed by Quebec.

So respecting the jurisdiction, there are, nevertheless, mechanisms of engagement that have been historically important.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you. Merci.

Mr. Hiebert, please, for five minutes.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Thank you.

The first question is for CASA.

I'm glad you raised the issue of books. We've heard, as you mentioned, from Campus Stores Canada, who raised the issue as well. It seems pretty straightforward.

I just noted in one of your footnotes here that the original legislation or regulation was primarily intended for two publishers, General Distribution and Pegasus Wholesale, who are no longer in business. Do you know how that was in fact the case, that they were the intended recipients of these regulations?

[Spencer Keys]

That has come through conversations with Campus Stores, but certainly our understanding at the time was that those were the two major domestically owned distributors that were importing books at the time.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Okay.

Going to the issue of student loans, you note the “perverse incentive”, as you wrote, “where the more a student works, the more their student loan is diminished”. Obviously that's a clear disincentive, but after a student loan has been disbursed, how would the program reduce a loan once they found out the student was working?

[Spencer Keys]

That's actually one of the additional problems with it, which is that it really ends up targeting only those who make a prediction about how much they're going to earn, rather than actually relating it to their income level. So if you were generous about what you thought you might earn, that's going to punish you more than a person who thinks they're not going to work at all.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

So it's part of the application?

[Spencer Keys]

Yes.