Yes.
Evidence of meeting #55 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was havens.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #55 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was havens.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:35 a.m.
Director, Centre for Tax Policy and Administration, Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development
I don't think you can put an exact figure on it, but I think you can confidently say that it is big, that it is growing, and that we need to deal with it.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Well, that's the reason we're here today, and you're helping us a great deal.
Thank you for that.
Ms. Alepin, I want to come back to one of your previous remarks because it called out to me. You said that one of the best ways would be to require everyone, even if individuals aren't receiving income in another country, to say whether the money is being placed in a tax haven. But if we want to avoid the debate about what a tax haven is, it seems to me that it would be dead easy to ask all citizens to disclose in their tax returns whether they have a bank account elsewhere, either personally or through a third party private individual or corporate body.
I am not going to start to debate, to go back to Mr. Owens who talked about Delaware, whether such a place is or isn't one.
If you have a bank account in the United States or in France, it could be perfectly legitimate, but we want to at least know. Would there be a fundamental objection to this measure that we should know about?
9:40 a.m.
Chartered Accountant, Agora, Services de fiscalité Inc., As an Individual
Yes.
9:40 a.m.
Chartered Accountant, Agora, Services de fiscalité Inc., As an Individual
It's that, in practice, taxpayers are not going to provide the information. And there's already a similar question in the federal income tax return. Individuals are asked whether they own property outside Canada valued at more than $100,000. In practice, people who go to tax havens to avoid paying Canadian taxes are quite simply not going to answer that question. It's very easy to simply not answer, and the Canadian tax authorities have no way of verifying it.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
This observation was also made when they came here. You referred to the presentation they made in December.
9:40 a.m.
Chartered Accountant, Agora, Services de fiscalité Inc., As an Individual
Yes.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
We got the clear impression that the approach was a bit too trusting, if not, dare I say it, almost naïve.
I'm looking for practical solutions. We are law-makers, and we are dealing with a global problem. With the obvious advances in information technology, the equivalent of the global gross domestic product circulates every four days.
9:40 a.m.
Chartered Accountant, Agora, Services de fiscalité Inc., As an Individual
The basic problem that these tax havens probably present on tax systems is that Canada's tax systems will be 100 years old in 2017. They were developed at a time when tax havens, the Internet and e-commerce did not exist.
They are therefore based on tax principles that require a physical presence.
9:40 a.m.
Chartered Accountant, Agora, Services de fiscalité Inc., As an Individual
The entire issue of tax residency is based in some way on principles that are not quite in step with the 21st century. We—you and me—need to keep in mind that Canada alone cannot reverse it. Reflection is needed and it must start, slowly, at the international level.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
You said "slowly", but when we are losing hundreds of billions of dollars stashed away elsewhere, the "slowly" means that, with the six thousand billion dollars that have been printed since the start of the economic crisis, once things have picked up a bit of speed and gained momentum, you and I are going to have to deal with an inflation problem.
9:40 a.m.
Chartered Accountant, Agora, Services de fiscalité Inc., As an Individual
Yes.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
But the same amount is not productive. Here, the paradox is that people making this money benefit from these structures: a rule of law, to use Mr. Deneault's term, honest tribunals, an honest public administration system. But all of that is expensive. Now that they have made this money thanks to this system and this rule of law, they do not want to pay their share. So there's the basic injustice.
9:40 a.m.
Chartered Accountant, Agora, Services de fiscalité Inc., As an Individual
What's worse, if I may say so, are the middle-class taxpayers who have to make up the shortfall.
9:40 a.m.
Chartered Accountant, Agora, Services de fiscalité Inc., As an Individual
And, internationally, in industrialized countries, we see more and more dissatisfaction and mounting fiscal pressure within the middle class.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
I have a little question for you, Mr. Deneault.
Do you know about the UBS bank? Are you aware of how it recruited clients in the United States? It used well known and top people. Are we seeing a similar trend here in Canada? Have you had a chance to look into this?
9:40 a.m.
Researcher, Chaire de recherche du Canada en mondialisation, citoyenneté et démocratie, Université du Québec à Montréal
I must humbly admit that this does not fall under my area of expertise.
9:40 a.m.
Researcher, Chaire de recherche du Canada en mondialisation, citoyenneté et démocratie, Université du Québec à Montréal
I deal more with issues of political thought related to states, jurisdictions, and so on.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Great. I am going to address those issues exactly. You mentioned in passing the free trade agreement with Panama and Colombia.
9:40 a.m.
Researcher, Chaire de recherche du Canada en mondialisation, citoyenneté et démocratie, Université du Québec à Montréal
Yes.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
We have been continuously fighting against the signing of a free trade agreement between Canada and Colombia. I am happy to give you a chance to provide us with more information on the problems you simply touched on earlier because there was not enough time.