Evidence of meeting #60 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cra.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Filipe Dinis  Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Richard Case  Director General, Resource Management Directorate, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

9:50 a.m.

Director General, Resource Management Directorate, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Richard Case

That's correct. Under the HST regime, the provinces have a certain amount of autonomy, a certain amount of ability to design its aspect of that harmonized tax and to decide to issue credits like this, should they so desire. Under our agreement with the provinces, we will administer that credit at the same time in a harmonized way with the federal component.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Thank you.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Ms. Block.

Monsieur Mulcair, s'il vous plaît.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC

I'm immediately going to return to Mr. Dinis and to a question by Mr. Pacetti which he didn't answer. In his answer, he mentioned something that he had read in the media and that concerned the business of our committee. Although I thank him for caring, I would like to remind him that he is here to give us answers. If he is genuinely concerned about respecting our parliamentary committee and respecting us as elected representatives of the people, I would like him to start giving us some answers

Earlier he referred to dismissals. He used the English word dismissals. How many people have been dismissed as a result of the incidents we are all discussing here today, that is to say the allegations of serious fraud at the Canada Revenue Agency in Montreal?

9:50 a.m.

Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Filipe Dinis

Mr. Chair, again, I'd like to come back to the committee with that specific number. I want to make sure that I provide the committee with accurate figures. I don't have them with me today.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC

We eagerly await them. You'll submit them to the committee clerk as soon as possible.

9:55 a.m.

Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Filipe Dinis

Yes, of course.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC

Starting today, I would like to get rid of a strange feeling that I get while listening to you. We're here today with the most senior officers of the Canada Revenue Agency, for whom I have only the greatest personal respect. Here we're talking about the columns of the temple that have been shaken. This is indeed one of the most important government institutions. You can't operate a modern state if you can't collect taxes, if there is collusion in such a crucially important industry as the construction industry, if people are establishing fake companies, empty shells, and manage to establish—and this is clearly the case here—a collaborative or collusive relationship with people at a revenue agency. This has never happened in the entire history of Canada.

I'm baffled by your attitude, which is to shrug your shoulders and tell us that there's that, that you don't need to ask us for one cent more, that you'll do what you usually do and reallocate... If that's what you do every day, I'm very concerned. When Mr. Paillé raised the possibility of introducing his motion, I was one of the first to agree, for the good and simple reason that the institution you represent is part of the very basis of a government's ability to operate, in this case the Government of Canada.

I'd like you to tell us how concerned you are about what has happened and what concrete measures you've taken to determine how it could have occurred and to ensure it doesn't occur again. There's something corporate in your answer. One might almost say we're dealing with members of a guild who are protecting themselves. I'm not at all satisfied with the seriousness and conviction of your answers. I'd really like to hear you reassure us, tell us that you've grasped the seriousness of the situation and that you are taking measures to address it. If you need us as elected members to provide you with more resources, tell us.

9:55 a.m.

Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Filipe Dinis

Mr. Chair, I want to reinforce and echo the member's assessment that we are extremely focused on the need to maintain our very strong reputation in the agency and what we do. We are very much focused on taking action to maintain our strong reputation, which we believe we have.

We have taken measures in terms of being proactive in looking into the cases and the allegations that have been brought forward. All allegations are looked at seriously. With the resources that we have, we've refocused some of our investigation capacity from lower priorities to higher priorities.

So as a concrete example, just to demonstrate, obviously as an organization of our size we have investigation capacity, both from an employee perspective and from a review of files, etc. We have increased our resources in terms of shifting resources from the lower priorities within the agency to focus on this particular case. We are also looking at what kind of system changes we need to undertake in the agency to be able to detect on a more timely and proactive basis situations like the one that's been referenced.

We are looking at areas such as segregation of duties, for example. What I mean by segregation of duties, Mr. Chair, is basically ensuring that in certain of our functions the same person does not have the ability to make various decisions throughout the process.

All of these measures are being looked at. We're increasing our resources in those areas and what we're doing is basically shifting resources from lower priorities.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Merci.

We'll go to Mr. Brison, please.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Mr. Dinis, earlier today in your response to a question, you said that you were sensitive to media reports around certain motions of this committee and that prevented you from answering the question. Is that right? Am I representing correctly what you said?

9:55 a.m.

Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Filipe Dinis

Mr. Chair, the only clarification I would bring to that is that it's not that it was preventing me from elaborating; it was just that I wanted to be respectful of the fact that I was in front of the committee today to really discuss supps (C), and that was the preparation I had undertaken. With that in mind, I just wanted to be respectful of any pending discussions.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

I don't understand what you just said, to be honest. Did you or did you not earlier say that you were being sensitive to media reports around certain motions and that affected your ability to answer questions?

10 a.m.

Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Filipe Dinis

I was indeed sensitive to media reports that there was a possibility of a motion in front of the committee.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Respectfully, you have a responsibility as a public servant before a parliamentary committee to answer questions to the best of your ability, as thoroughly as you're able, with all the information you have, and you should not be guided by or impeded by sensitivity to media reports about certain motions.

This committee is able to and will continue to do its business, and there will be motions from this committee, but your responsibility is to provide, in as fulsome a manner as possible, what you know to this committee in response to questions. Would you agree with that?

10 a.m.

Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Filipe Dinis

Mr. Chair, I do agree with that, and the responses that I've provided on this particular issue here today are very much in line with what I'm aware of. I'm committed to continue doing that here today.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

So shall we say that you're over your sensitivity to media reports?

10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

10 a.m.

Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Filipe Dinis

I've provided what I believe to be a more detailed response to Mr. Mulcair's question on this particular issue.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Are there any further questions, Mr. Brison?

10 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Perhaps one of my colleagues would like to....

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I can give a minute and a half.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Yes. We had a nice conversation earlier before the meeting started, and part of it was the education process, so maybe you need an opportunity to explain to the committee the kinds of things that you want to be sure you don't opine upon, which are not your responsibility or may be misconstrued if you're pressed on something.

Are you being consistent in your approach to this? Or is this particular incident of a motion and an issue about release and access and information just being in the media somehow influencing your making the decision yourself that you're taking a different approach here on your own volition but not as a policy matter?

10 a.m.

Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Filipe Dinis

Mr. Chair, I'm bringing clarity to the situation. I was really preparing myself to respond to the issues under the supplementary estimates (C).

10 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Sure. Fine.