Finance Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2011

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Good.

Mr. Zurel, how many public-private partnership undertakings in the Newfoundland region have you been involved in? How many are there that you know about? Is your knowledge theoretical or practical?

[Jo Mark Zurel]

On the question on P3s and my personal involvement in these organizations, I am not involved in any way with any companies that provide P3s directly to government. I speak on behalf of the St. John's Board of Trade, with our 800-plus members and tens of thousands of employees. What I'm talking about is the policy work we have developed with input from these members.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I want to know specifically about public-private partnerships. How important is this sector in Newfoundland? Does it exist?

[Jo Mark Zurel]

Yes, there are. For example, we do the construction work for many of the federal government programs, so there are P3s. My comment was directed more towards the fact that it's not the benefit to the companies but more the benefit to the government, because we believe that private industry can do these things more efficiently and at a lower cost than government directly. We're really focusing on the benefit to government, not to business, although obviously there would be some benefits going in both directions.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have 15 seconds.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

The problem is that, in the rest of Canada, where public-private partnerships have operated, there have been scandals, corruption, major cost overruns and poor service.

When we talk about public-private partnerships and we say that it will work, it must be based on a model that works. Currently, in your opinion, what model works well? There have been none to date in Canada, England and France.

[Jo Mark Zurel]

If you want to find examples of things that don't work, you can always find them. When you look at what small businesses do directly, they outsource, they build themselves into global value chains all around the world, and they are able to compete and develop value. When services are delivered directly by government, or delivered by business, you'll always be able to find examples of where things go poorly. It doesn't mean that it's not worth trying or that we shouldn't learn from these experiences. We need to work hard to make sure that we manage our contracts properly and that we put the checks and balances in place to ensure that corruption doesn't take place.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Van Kesteren, please.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, everybody, for coming here today.

Ms. Ralph, I appreciate your recommendations. I suspect that part of the problem with your second recommendation is that the EI act itself is structured in such a way that the provinces become responsible for an individual who experiences disabilities, and that creates a little bit of a problem.

I would like you to address that. I think our government recognizes there is a real need in the provinces for more funding. For instance, under the gas act, for municipalities, the 2¢.... I just jotted some of these things down, and I'm trying to think if we have participated in that. The reduction in GST will impact all governments. There were enormous increases to the provinces in transfer payments. If my memory serves me right, there was $2 billion for co-op housing as well, which certainly would help those who are on disability. The government is doing, within its framework, what it is able to do.

I think your recommendations are something we have to look at, but within that framework we are somewhat impeded.

There is one issue I wish you would have possibly made into a recommendation. You probably do recommend this. I just want to give you that opportunity. We've heard from a number of our witnesses that we are at the very crest of a worker shortage, so it seems very strange...because I know that people with disabilities have very much to offer. I am wondering if you have some type of plan for employers to hire people with disabilities, in the form of a tax.... Have you considered those? Do you have any of those recommendations? I think that would be as important as your other recommendations.

[Susan Ralph]

As I said, our national action plan is developed strictly by people with disabilities and their families, and the tax bracket for employers is not something we've really considered. We have not wanted to work from a framework of charity models under which employers would get things. We want disability-related supports attached to individuals and not more programming.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

I appreciate that, but what I mean is we know we have some areas of concern. You've addressed those. In the interim period, for somebody who becomes disabled, our government is doing what it can. Whether or not we have to revamp that is a discussion that would have to take place among the provinces and the federal government.

What I mean is, are you actively looking at ways to have people who have become disabled return to the workforce? Do you have some recommendations for the government that would enable employers to possibly hire people with disabilities? Have you any recommendations to that effect?

[Susan Ralph]

I would say yes. On numerous occasions we have looked at labour market strategies and ways to include people with disabilities in the workforce. One of the things that has happened, certainly more at a grassroots level, is that we have developed training programs within disability organizations that depend very much on the social development partnerships program. We are working with people with disabilities to increase labour market opportunities through awareness and information and through partnering people with disabilities within a trades program or through educational opportunities and training programs, so they can get out there and get involved, but not at all through tax breaks for employers.

[Robert Blakely]

What if they modified the workplace in order for somebody to be able to access the work?

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

That's a good recommendation.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Your time is up.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

If you could make those recommendations, I think they would be very helpful for the government as well. If you have some ideas, sir, that possibly--

[Robert Blakely]

Sure. We frequently get people who are in a skilled trade and have an injury that would preclude them from being able to.... Let's say an iron worker has an injury to their lower limb or to their back and can no longer climb on the steel. Finding a way to modify the work so they can do the work, in some cases while sitting down.... It costs maybe $100,000 to set somebody up at a workstation, but if you can set them up at a workstation, they can be as productive as they were beforehand, doing important and highly technical work. You just need to have the ready capital to be able to modify the guy's work circumstances.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Ms. Ralph?

[Susan Ralph]

I'll just say one thing. The little study that we did do showed that most workplace accommodations for persons with disabilities cost less than $50 to modify....

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Harris, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

First of all, I want to thank and welcome to St. John's all of my colleagues from the House of Commons, on both sides of the House. This morning we had a nice blanket of fog to envelop you and make you feel cozy.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I see that it's opening up now. You can have a good view of the harbour and the city. There may even be some sunshine later on today. Who knows?

Thanks to all of you for your presentations. I'm sorry that I had to step out for a moment to do an interview.

Let me ask you this first, Bob Blakely. As someone who travels back and forth to Ottawa regularly, I know that there are always a lot of Newfoundlanders heading to work, many to Alberta, because the flight from here goes from St. John's to Ottawa to Edmonton and then up to see Brian Jean in his riding.

I have a lot of respect for all of those people who travel back and forth. They live in their communities in Newfoundland and many of them drive a few hours to get to St. John's before they even go out there. They're working in Alberta or elsewhere, keeping their community going here in Newfoundland and Labrador with their income, with their families here.

We do have a crisis, obviously, in workers--we hear it all the time--especially in construction. But the two things about construction are: one, the requirement for people to move to get to work is significant; and two, in many cases, the seasonality of construction projects makes this type of work less attractive. People like to have year-round employment. They like to have steady work and they like to have a steady income.

I get a sense of frustration from you. You keep proposing ways of making life easier for workers and of making those jobs more attractive, but are you getting any response at all from the government in terms of proposals to make these jobs more attractive? How else are we going to achieve the resolution to the worker shortage and skills shortage if we don't do things like that?

[Robert Blakely]

Am I a bit frustrated with this? The short answer is yes. If you look at it, you'll see that there is enough work in the future for the next 10 years in Canada for the workforce we have, plus the workforce we're going to need to attract to keep the numbers up to a critical mass. The only issue is that people have to move from place to place. In some cases, when you're travelling on your own nickel or your employer is giving you $65 a day to live, you're subsidizing that employer.

In some cases, you may live in the camp and it's all found, but the guy who drives from Corner Brook to St. John's to get the flight spends a lot of money. A lot of people look at it and say, “Gee, if I'm living in Alberta and it's costing me $185 a night for a hotel room and I have to buy my meals, what's the point?”

The long and the short of this one is that by coming up with some way to assist people in moving across this country, we actually benefit the country. One of the most important drivers when people look at investing $6 billion to build the Vale Inco smelter, investing $12 billion to do Muskrat Falls, or putting down $10 billion to build an upgrader in Fort McMurray is, will we get enough people with the right skills at the right time? If they can't be assured of that, they don't invest.

So as an economic driver, making sure that we have a workforce that's mobile.... I wouldn't call us seasonal. I don't think we're seasonal anymore; we are transitory from job to job, because no job lasts forever. But until and unless there is some way of ensuring ready access to the pool of people who are unemployed in another part of this country, and to creating a truly mobile construction maintenance workforce, it's a disincentive for people who are going to spend their money.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have 30 seconds.