Finance Committee on June 20th, 2011

[Gonzague Guéranger, Acting Assistant Comptroller General, Financial Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Good morning. My name is Gonzague Guéranger from the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat.

[Peter O'Callaghan, Senior Analyst, Office of the Comptroller General, Treasury Board]

I'm Peter O'Callaghan from the Comptroller General's Office.

[Doug Nevison, Director, Fiscal Policy Division, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

Doug Nevison from the Department of Finance.

[Stefan Matiation, Senior Privy Council Officer, Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office]

Stefan Matiation, Privy Council Office.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Who would like to address Mr. McCallum's questions?

[Gonzague Guéranger]

I can begin with some elements of the answer.

Thank you for your question. This bill is really to acknowledge the fact that more and more departments--and we have been doing this for a while--have been taking the initiative to collaborate among themselves to share some of the internal support services they need. It could be related to HR, finance, IM/IT, these kinds of services. The main reason for this collaboration most of the time is that we have small organizations that don't have enough capacities, and they prefer to regroup so they can share these services in a more economical and efficient way. We have an example of that in different places in the government, and we want to recognize that movement and give them the legislative authority to proceed with those arrangements.

It is true that there is an increasing demand for building new delivery mechanisms among departments to reduce costs and increase efficiencies for these internal support services. This will enable further collaboration among departments.

I'd just like to mention that it is not retroactive.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. O'Callaghan.

[Peter O'Callaghan]

Only clause 35 is retroactive to June 1. Clause 34 is not; that is the clause that would enable the provision of interdepartmental services.

[Stefan Matiation]

I can speak to clause 35. This clause would add a provision to the Financial Administration Act that would clarify that a department to which a portion of the federal public administration is transferred under the Public Service Rearrangement and Transfer of Duties Act may make expenditures in respect of that portion of the federal public administration and the functions carried out within it.

To explain this further, the Public Service Rearrangement and Transfer of Duties Act is legislation that enables the Governor in Council to move a unit from one department to another.

The policy intent of the amendment in clause 35 is that the unspent balance of the funds that have been appropriated to the transferred unit or portion within one department can then be spent by the department to which they've been transferred. The amendment would basically align the spending authority with the department to which the portion has been transferred.

It's clause 35 that is retroactive to June 1. That would mean that if there are any orders in council under the Public Service Rearrangement and Transfer of Duties Act from that date forward, those orders would be subject to this deeming provision.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Mr. Jean, please.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I've never been known for my spelling ability, but in paragraph 29.2(4)(g), is the word “materiel” correct?

[Peter O'Callaghan]

Yes, it is. There is the term “materiel”. I don't know the exact definition of it, but it is the correct spelling.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Are there further questions?

Mr. McCallum.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

The officials gave a very benign interpretation to my question, which is fine. This is really more a comment. I believe that under Mike Harris, in Ontario, the same sort of mechanism was used. So, for example, one human resources department would serve a variety of departments, and the people in the HR departments of these other departments would simply be fired. That was a mechanism to fire a lot of people, but it also put services at risk.

I note that both the Treasury Board president and the finance minister were senior economic ministers in the Harris cabinet, so I see a little bit of history repeating itself, or at least the risk of that.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Do you want to...?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I'm not asking them to answer that, unless they would like to.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Do you want to respond on whether this is modelled on the Harris government's effort to fire civil servants? I think that's the question.

[Gonzague Guéranger]

No, it is really not. For instance, as you know, in the budget we have the strategic operating review, and the bill we are talking about is independent of that. We would have proceeded with it regardless, because it's a good model to put in place to increase efficiencies and spend public moneys better by allowing departments to collaborate and share these administrative services among themselves.

In fact, to be honest with you, it was a recommendation from the Auditor General's report in 2008 that such a move be made to allow smaller organizations in particular to collaborate among themselves to get those services more cheaply.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay. Do you want me to go on, or Ms. Glover, do you want to make a point?

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I'm glad you brought up the Auditor General's report, sir.

I just want to ask a quick question. Can you give us an example of how internal services are already being shared by two departments, and that this just basically puts into legislation that this is okay?

[Gonzague Guéranger]

Yes, the example I would use is two departments that would share the same financial system or HR system. Instead of having two departments buying the same system--

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I'm sorry, I think you misunderstood. I want you to give me a concrete example. For example, Finance shares a service with Treasury Board.

[Gonzague Guéranger]

Yes.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

What is that service?