Finance Committee on Dec. 1st, 2011

[Filipe Dinis]

Mr. Chair, I do have an estimate of the cost to implement the small business tax credit, which is approximately $5.2 million. What I don't have with me is the uptake. This is something that we would have to take back for consideration and then come back to the committee.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Marston.

We'll go to Mr. Van Kesteren, please, for a five-minute round.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for appearing here today. I have a quick question. The opposition was asking something about auditors going out, and I'm curious about the procedure. I think that generally we have a fairly good reputation. If you were to compare us, say, with the United States, there isn't the same level of fear—although as Mr. Adler said, there is a little trepidation.

The reason I say this is that when the Ontario government did away with the PST and adopted the GST, an army of auditors went out and targeted certain areas, the result being that many businesses were hit with.... And they can argue these and can take them to court, but it's very costly, and so they generally.... I was one of those. In the car business, for instance, we were just handed a bill: “Here's what you owe”.

My first question is, how do you guard against that? I understand that there's a fine line between.... Obviously, if you owe taxes, everybody understands that. How do you guard between being a fair institution governed by the rule of those laws that we put in place in Parliament and, by getting out there and.... For instance, sometimes we've had allegations by police officers, who say they need to go out and get a quota of tickets.

How do you guard against that? How do Canadians know that the revenue agency is operating in a fair and equitable manner?

[Filipe Dinis]

Mr. Chair, as I said earlier, we in the agency are quite proud of the integrity of our employees. We have more than 40,000 employees in the agency in various functions, and we've referred to approximately 9,000 as being in the audit function.

We spend a lot of time and energy conveying to our employees the importance of our values and the ethics we have established in the agency. We have a very strong code of conduct that we reinforce. We also ask individuals to sign a letter, every time they're hired, that first of all they understand what the CRA's code of conduct is and that they commit to adhering to it.

We have ongoing training, which we undertake across the agency, including among our auditors, to reinforce those messages.

In a population of 40,000, including 9,000 auditors, there will always be exceptions, given the nature of our business. So we are committed to continuing to reinforce those key messuages within the agency and also to ensuring that these employees fully understand the role they play vis-à-vis the integrity of an organization such as the CRA.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

How many of those auditors who were laid off or had their jobs eliminated when the PST was taken out of the picture were then hired by the federal government?

[Filipe Dinis]

Mr. Chair, in ballpark numbers, we had approximately 1,253 auditors who were impacted by the harmonization with the Province of Ontario. We made offers to all of those. We had more than a 90% take-up rate of the job offers made. Those individuals are now employees of the CRA and have come over. In B.C., there were more or less 270 individuals who were impacted; about 133 or so have come over to the agency.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

How has the transfer process in Ontario been going?

[Filipe Dinis]

We are quite proud to say that we believe that the transition was implemented very successfully. We spent a lot of time and energy up front in communicating with those auditors and other staff who came over from the Province of Ontario to ensure a smooth transition. In my view, they have blended very well with the CRA culture and are working side-by-side with those individuals who were CRA employees from the start.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren.

Monsieur Giguère, s'il vous plaît.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank Mr. Dinis and Mr. Case for being here.

In the Montreal office, eight people were dismissed, about twenty were suspended, about thirty retired…

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Point of order, Ms. Glover.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I don't see in the Supplementary Estimates what Mr. Giguère is talking about. So I would like to raise a point of order with our chair so that he can keep us on topic, since there is an inquiry under way and, obviously, we don't want to do anything that could jeopardize that. Regardless, what he said was not in the Supplementary Estimates. I'd appreciate it if the chair made a…

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Chair…

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

…call for order if we stray too far from the topic of today's agenda.

Thank you.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, but I'm talking about the management of…

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Wait, please, Mr. Giguère. Mr. Mai would like to say something.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

This is on the point of order. From the outset, Mr. Chair, you have allowed us to ask questions that are not necessarily directly related to the subject being studied. Some even came from the other side, and the witnesses answered them. It has been common practice on this committee to not necessarily always limit the debate. We saw it in the budget consultations. To be consistent with how the meeting started today, I'd ask that you allow the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I have Monsieur Giguère and then Mr. Julian.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Chair, my question is directly related to the agenda. Supplementary estimates are being requested. But those supplementary estimates are related to management and resolving problems.

He said earlier that he was proud of his staff.

Mr. Van Kesteren asked some very specific questions about a public servant who had stolen information. I think that if we can ask questions about a public servant, we can ask questions about an office of public servants. It's still of major importance. Why should Mr. Van Kesteren be allowed to ask questions about a specific public servant, and I can't ask a question about a group of public servants who are paralyzing the work?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Chair, it's very clear that the Conservatives asked questions on the same topics. I find it unfortunate for them because they are reducing the amount of time they have to speak because, at noon, we will move on to the Department of Finance. It's unfortunate for them; they'll lose a round. I hope you aren't going to penalize Mr. Giguère for the Conservative Party's intervention.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you all for your comments. It is straying somewhat from the specific estimates before us today, but it is clearly within the administration of CRA.

I am going to say to Mr. Dinis and Mr. Case that a very serious investigation is ongoing. So please say what you can, but, obviously, do not stray into areas where you may get into trouble as an organization or as individuals.

Mr. Dinis, do you want to respond to Monsieur Giguère?

[Filipe Dinis]

The one observation that--