Finance Committee on Feb. 14th, 2012

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Mr. Bussey, would you like to add anything?

[Barry Bussey]

I'd just like to add that, as I mentioned, we do have the seal of accountability. We're actually in the process right now of developing a separate website that's even going to advertise in a much more stark way those who have reached the seal of accountability. We also do advertising in newspapers and so forth where we list all of our members who have reached the seal.

Certainly I think your point is well taken that for the seniors who are not into the Internet age, we need to be more mindful of that, and I appreciate that.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Mr. Robinson, do you see a similar issue with groups claiming to be environmental groups? Do you evaluate or do you belong to an association that would evaluate those groups to say they actually put the dollars where they claim to be putting them?

[Peter Robinson]

As I mentioned at the beginning, I do believe that all organizations should be accountable and should have information that's easily accessed by potential donors.

It's not quite the same as the other fellowships. The environmental community is so different. You can have a little tiny group that does bog restoration in Prince Rupert and then the larger groups. I think it's more a matter that the closer a group is to the community in which it is located, the more reasonable it is that people will know who they are and whether they would want to give to them. When you get to the larger groups, all of the larger groups are, I think, pretty good at being transparent about reporting information, and we hope to be increasingly so.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Hoback.

Mr. Mai, you have the floor.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Once again, my thanks to all the witnesses for joining us today.

I see that everyone.... I'll speak in English, then.

My question, first of all, is for Mr. Robinson. You mentioned the fact that there are possibilities of getting funds from overseas. Can you explain the processes? How do you make applications for grants from U.S. foundation organizations?

[Peter Robinson]

That's a good question. I think sometimes it's been portrayed that the money comes with strings attached.

The way you apply for grants from any international philanthropic organization's foundation is that you actually have to make an application. They're quite detailed packages. You say, “Here is the project we'd like to do and the outcomes we'd like to achieve, and here's how we would spend the money.”

Clearly you look at organizations that have a track record of giving funds in that area, so if we had a marine project we wouldn't send it to a group that doesn't do marine work.

Then it's evaluated, and not all projects are approved. If they are, they have very tight strings attached, but not the strings that say this is what you must do. It's, “Here is the reporting we'd like. Here's when we'd like it. We will make sure you don't spend the money on something you didn't apply for.”

It is a very competitive process. You have to be really clear about what you want to achieve and be prepared not to get that grant in the first place.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you very much.

I have a question for Mr. Hutchinson.

We're finding organizations, especially in my riding, Brossard—La Prairie, that are helping families who actually have jobs. They're now coming to food banks and things like that.

You mentioned that there needs to be work from the government regarding fighting poverty. In terms of how things have gone lately with regard to increased demand from the services you have, what should the government do?

[Don Hutchinson]

Well, as we've suggested, one area where the government could move very quickly would be to bring equity into the tax system for households so that single-income households would not be penalized as they are now.

We were quite encouraged when we saw the HUMA report, and we were discouraged when it was very quickly discounted by the government. We would like to see that report given additional study to consider the issues.

In the economic climate in which we currently exist, Canadian families are both in danger and actually slipping into the poverty area, as you've mentioned. Food banks are having more visitors. People who are employed are attending missions to have meals, and some missions actually now have one dinner a week, or two dinners a week, that they're promoting as helping families stretch their budgets.

With increased costs in gasoline and hydroelectricity—all of those things that all have tax components to them—the federal government could deal with the tax components that are federal and look at other means of regulation.

The bottom line is that the vast majority of Canadian families are facing zero or below inflation rate increases in their wages, and I think that's impacting the housing market. It's impacting people who are going to food banks, to other meal programs, and creating a danger for our culture.

We also need to be mindful that people who earn $20,000 or less are actually people who give more of their income to charities—3.6%. As your income goes up, you may actually give more dollars, but the percentage of income you give to charity goes down.

StatsCan, in their 2007 report, define Canada's top donors as the 25% in the country.... They had to work their numbers all the way down to top donors starting at $364.

That tells me that we have a problem with income and over taxation that needs to be dealt with.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Merci, Monsieur Mai.

We'll go to Mr. Adler, please.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to commend and thank all of you for all of the great work you do in this field.

I just want to pick up on something that Mr. Van Pelt said about it tending to be the same people giving over and over again. We see that in our work too. How do we create a culture of giving in this country? Is it through increased incentives or is it through education? Could you just talk a bit about how we create that culture, in your estimation?

[Michael Van Pelt]

Thank you.

It's an extremely difficult question, and that's why, in our proposal, Cardus argues for change in the charitable tax credit. But along with that is a whole new debate about what it is to give and care for your neighbour, because the tax credit is really an interim measure to solve a problem that right now we seem to not know how to solve. So there are all kinds of connections, and Don made some of them. What's the relationship between charitable giving and the state of religion in the country? What's the relationship between mobility and charitable giving? There are so many questions in those areas that we have not tackled. We have not said this is a great Canadian debate.

If there is anything I would respectfully challenge you and your position of leadership in this country on, it would be to use your position of having a voice to make this a much bigger issue. At some point, we will make the connection between the state of charitable giving in this country and the strength of our economy. We're not there yet. We're not making those links, but at some point we will make those links, and all of a sudden this will become an issue we want to talk about.

Why don't we kick that into gear before the numbers start making those links all on their own? When you look at the demographics, all of a sudden the state of the family becomes an economic issue. We need more children to be able to create economic productivity and growth, and so on. The same thing is going to happen in the charitable sector. At some point, it's going to be an economic conversation. It's not going to be a conversation about how good you feel about your neighbour. We need to hit the conversation, and you, I respectively suggest, can take the leadership, because you have a platform that nobody else has to do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Adler, there are two more who want to comment. It's up to you. You have Mr. Hutchinson and Mr. MacDonald.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I'll come back to them. I just want to follow up on this.

Demographics are clearly working against us on all of this. Is that correct? With our aging population, we're going to have fewer young people working, and where is that charitable giving going to come from?

[Michael Van Pelt]

This is fascinating. If you look at the tax expenditure lines from 2005 to 2011 as they're published by your government, and then jump onto David Foot's website and take a look, you'll see that David has a demographic bubble transition—this year, this year, this year, and this year. Right now we actually should have a dramatic interest in charitable giving, because we're going through a baby boomer period: their kids are finished university; they have disposable income; they still have traditions of giving, and so on. But that will come to an end. So I am quite fearful about this matter. To my knowledge, nobody has done research to overlay the charitable tax expenditures with the demographic bubble shifting giving. That still needs to be done to help answer your question.

Now the window is open. Now we can do it, right?

[Michael Van Pelt]

That's correct.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

It's just going to be too late.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have a minute left.

Mr. Bird, you wanted to comment?

[Ian Bird]

I just—

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have two more first. It's up to you, but you had Mr. Hutchinson and Mr. MacDonald.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

There's a minute left. I'm just trying to manage members' time as well as I can.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Mr. MacDonald, do you want to comment?

[Bruce MacDonald]

I think it's a great question, and I don't think there's a simple answer. I think that's the challenge: tax incentives alone.... And I agree with Michael's point—there's not a magic bullet here. I think there's a combination. Tax incentives are absolutely part of the pie. I think it's engagement of volunteers. I think it's understanding the changing nature of Canada, not just with respect to an aging population, but with respect to new Canadians and to aboriginal youth and the growing aboriginal populations in this country. How do we engage them in making Canada a better place? Our experience certainly in the Big Brothers Big Sisters world—and I can speak really only to that context—is that the more engaged people are, the more likely they are to be donors. It's an overly simplistic formula, but I think it's a very complicated question.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

If you—