Evidence of meeting #7 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was growth.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Benoît Robidoux  Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Mark Carney  Governor, Bank of Canada
Tiff Macklem  Senior Deputy Governor, Bank of Canada

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Sir, obviously you are going to have a minor disagreement; I know there's not a full consensus among the finance ministers and I agree with that statement, but a majority of those ministers were expressing their support for it.

Another thing is that you're talking about not putting pressure on employers, but with the low interest rates right now and the fact that many employers have to top up their existing pension plans, expanding the CPP, to my mind, makes good sense. It will take much of the future pressure off employers. I know you're looking at a long-term plan for the CPP, and those private pension plans are very hard pressed right now.

I really don't quite understand the delay. When we look back at 2009, we were talking quite optimistically, it seemed, when I asked you the question in the House. Suddenly we're now at a place where we're not getting action at the rate we were hoping for.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Flaherty Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

One of the realities is that finance ministers across the country look at the relatively weak economic growth in the western industrialized economies and the moderate growth that we have in Canada and are hesitant to impose more financial burdens on business, especially the small businesses that generate most of the job creation.

We are going ahead. Ted Menzies, the Minister of State for Finance, has been meeting with finance ministers across the country this summer to advance the pooled registered pension plan idea, and I hope we'll be able to move ahead with that expeditiously.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

You have 30 seconds, Mr. Marston.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I'll reiterate that we believe that now is the time we should be investing in creating jobs for Canadians by way of investing in our infrastructure. We've heard about Montreal, the tunnel, the Champlain Bridge, and there are other major projects across this country we could be investing in. Getting rid of the deficit in jobs and generating that cash back into the economy would be one important step, along with others, at this point in time.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Minister, do you have a brief comment?

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Flaherty Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

I appreciate the genuine concern that I know the member has with respect to pensions. This is a complicated area, and it's an area with respect to which we will continue to work. I welcome the comments and advice of the member.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Marston.

We'll go to Ms. Young, please, for five minutes.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC

Thank you again for sharing your birthday with us, Mr. Rajotte.

Minister Flaherty, thank you again for coming today.

As mentioned in your remarks, our government is staying the course and staying focused on the economy, including implementing the next phase of Canada's economic action plan. I am pleased to note that this plan includes not only many measures to help support Canada's economic recovery but also initiatives to support Canada's families.

In my riding of Vancouver South we have many families. It's a very residential area. We have the highest ethnic diversity in Canada, as well as a disproportionate number of seniors. Many of these measures to support Canadian families are measures about which I've heard positive and glowing remarks, so I want to pass that on to you today, Minister.

I want to also note that in supporting Canadian families, this government has maintained the course in federal-provincial transfer payments. These payments have remained stable, and we have committed to increasing health care transfers by 6% every year. As we know, these are measures that support Canadian families in terms of education, health, etc.

Today I want to specifically mention my constituents' support for the new family caregiver tax credit, which is an impressive new credit. In our ethnic communities in Vancouver, many caregivers do provide care to our aging population, our seniors, as well as to youth who are perhaps in special-needs circumstances. I note that this new tax support for family caregivers is at 15% and for each family is $2,000. It will impact over 500,000 caregivers across Canada. In 2011-12 that is a $40 million investment to support our families, and it is $160 million for the following year.

I also note that we are continuing and extending our ecoENERGY retrofit homes program. As I mentioned earlier, in Vancouver South we are a very residential area, so this program is also welcomed by my constituents. It provides nearly $870 million over two years to address climate change and air quality. It provides homeowners with grants of up to $5,000 to make their homes more energy efficient, which will help reduce the burden of high energy costs. Again, this is a very welcome measure.

Finally, I want to touch upon seniors, because in Vancouver South we have a very high proportion of seniors. The enhanced guaranteed income supplement is going to benefit couples by $840 per year and single seniors by $600. This is a measure that will support families and seniors with up to $3 million per year, impacting 680,000 seniors across Canada.

I mention these measures because I and my constituents are very pleased and happy that in this next phase of the economic action plan, this government is continuing to support families across Canada, which I think is very important.

After talking about families, however, I want to turn a bit to the future and ask the minister to highlight some measures that the government is taking in the next phase of Canada's economic action plan to secure Canada's long-term economic prosperity. Could you specifically highlight measures in relation to innovation, education, and training?

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Minister, you'll have to answer that in approximately a minute, so be very concise.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Flaherty Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

I thank the member for Vancouver South for her question, and of course I acknowledge the needs of Canadian families, which the members are well aware of. I include the children's arts tax credit, which I've heard about a lot as well this summer.

In terms of R and D, of course it's fundamentally important that we advance the R and D cause in Canada, the innovation cause, and we've been doing that in the course of the budgets since 2006.

One of the most successful things that I'll mention are the Canada excellence research chairs, particularly with respect to the digital economy. The universities and their presidents have been very kind in their words with respect to the fact that we have created new Canada excellence research chairs and have extended and expanded the Canada student loans program, not only for full-time students but also for the many Canadians who study part time in post-secondary education.

As well, we are encouraging skill certification by making examination fees eligible for tax relief for occupations, trades, and professionals. All of these things matter a great deal to the growth of innovation in Canada.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Ms. Young.

We have a very brief round with Monsieur Giguère to finish up.

August 19th, 2011 / 9:55 a.m.

NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, you said a little earlier that it is important to put public finances in order. The problem is that this does not only imply controlling spending, but also controlling revenue.

Clearly, Canada has a serious problem with tax havens and aggressive tax planning. That is being stressed in every budget. If we simply eliminated the possibility for aggressive tax planning, I have a feeling we wouldn't even have to think about fighting the deficit.

You also said that Canada is a safe haven for doing business. That is clearly the case since private companies have accumulated $500 billion. Our problem is that that money does not turn into investments. If only a fraction of the amounts accumulated by private businesses turned into investments and if, instead of asking them to make investments, we had legislation forcing them to make those investments, we could considerably reduce the number of unemployed, which is at 1.7 million. If those unemployed people had a job to go to, we would not have any deficit problems.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Flaherty Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

Actually, we've closed some very substantial tax loopholes. I'll ask Mr. Robidoux to comment on the technical aspects of those loopholes.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Please give a brief comment.

9:55 a.m.

Benoît Robidoux Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Very briefly, in Budget 2011 we closed $4 billion of tax loopholes over five years, which was part of the savings measures we identified in Budget 2011. I don't have the numbers for 2010, but if my memory is not wrong, it was more than that in 2010.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

I'm hesitant to cut off the discussion, but we do have our next guest here.

Minister, I want to thank you and your officials very much for being with us here this morning, and for your presentation and your responses to our questions.

I will ask the media, if they have any questions, to ask them outside, and we'll bring Governor Carney to the table and proceed as quickly as possible. Thank you.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I want to begin our second panel by welcoming Mr. Mark Carney, Governor of the Bank of Canada. We welcome him very much to our committee. I know he presents to our committee at least twice per year, which we very much enjoy at this committee. It is when we have some of our best discussions.

Also, we welcome back the senior deputy governor, Mr. Tiff Macklem. Thank you so much for being with us here this morning.

We have a very short time, Governor, so we'll get right to your statement. Then we'll go to questions from members.

Thank you very much. We look forward to your comments.

10 a.m.

Mark Carney Governor, Bank of Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the committee for this opportunity to appear this morning. We'll make a short statement and we'll look forward to your questions. Happy birthday, Chair, as well.

We'll start on recent economic and financial developments.

In recent weeks, several downside risks to the bank's July projection have been realized. The European sovereign crisis has intensified, the U.S. credit rating has been downgraded, and a broad range of data has signalled slower global growth.

The United States is in the midst of the weakest recovery since the Great Depression. This is not a surprise as history teaches that recessions involving financial crises tend to be more severe and have recoveries that take twice as long.

Recent benchmark revisions show that the U.S. recession was even deeper and the recovery from the trough has been even shallower than previously reported.

The bank expects that American household spending will remain subdued in the face of high personal debt burdens, large declines in wealth and tough labour market conditions. In addition, fiscal stimulus in the United States will soon turn to fiscal drag.

For well over a year, the bank has been concerned about the prospects for resolving internal tensions within the euro area. Some of these concerns are now being realized, as acute fiscal and financial strains in Europe have triggered a generalized retrenchment from risk-taking and could yet prompt more severe dislocations in global funding markets.

In response to uncertainties in Europe and the evidence of slowing global growth, equity and commodity prices have fallen significantly and financial market volatility has increased markedly. The spillovers to Canadian financial markets have been less pronounced, but are still notable. Importantly, Canadian financial stocks have considerably outperformed their peers in the U.S., the U.K., and Europe, and our core funding markets have remained orderly. This will help ensure an appropriate flow of credit to Canadian households and businesses.

Recent events serve as a reminder that in a world awash with debt, repairing the balance sheets of banks, households, and countries will take years. As a consequence, the pace, pattern, and variability of global economic growth is changing, and Canada must adapt.

In short, the considerable external headwinds that the bank has long identified are now blowing harder. For Canadian producers, the persistent strength of the Canadian dollar is compounding the sluggishness of U.S. demand. Largely reflecting such external factors, recent Canadian data have been consistent with minimal to slightly negative growth in the second quarter. At the same time, labour market developments and business investment intentions suggest continued strength in our domestic economy.

The bank continues to expect that growth will accelerate in the second half of this year, led by business investment and household expenditures. Ongoing strength in major emerging markets should also help maintain commodity prices at relatively high levels. However, relative to our prior expectations, we expect somewhat weaker economic momentum both globally and consequently in Canada, with attendant consequences for resource utilization and inflationary pressures.

Since the crisis began, the broad economic strategy has been to grow domestic demand in the face of these considerable external headwinds and to encourage Canadian businesses to retool and reorient to the new global economy.

In response to the sharp, synchronous global recession, the bank lowered our target rate rapidly to its lowest possible level. We almost doubled our balance sheet to provide the financial sector with exceptional liquidity. And we gave exceptional guidance on the likely path of our target rate, through our conditional commitment.

In tandem, federal and provincial fiscal stimulus provided important further support to domestic demand, contributing significantly to Canadian economic growth through 2009 and 2010.

Owing to the underlying strength of domestic fundamentals, particularly our resilient financial system, these policies proved highly effective. Domestic demand in Canada grew more than twice as fast as in the U.S. Canada has recovered all the output and about 140% of the jobs lost during the recession. Throughout, price stability has been maintained.

As the Minister of Finance has rightly emphasized and as recent events have reinforced, fiscal sustainability is fundamental. It is essential to maintain Canada's fiscal advantage with an appropriately paced fiscal consolidation plan that is consistent with the G-20's Toronto summit commitments.

Similarly, private credit cannot grow without limit. Canadians are now as indebted as the Americans and the British. In an environment of exceptionally low interest rates, we must be careful not to repeat the mistakes of others, who now face the challenges of lowering unsustainable public and private debt burdens simultaneously.

There are five ways in which the bank will continue to support Canada's economic expansion in this difficult external environment.

First, the best contribution that monetary policy can make is to keep inflation low, stable, and predictable. Monetary policy is guided by our 2% inflation target for total CPI inflation. This is a symmetric commitment; that is, the bank cares as much about inflation being below target as above. Since the crisis erupted, the bank has demonstrated its flexibility and nimbleness in the conduct of monetary policy. As Canadian recovery has progressed, we have emphasized that we would be prudent with respect to the possible withdrawal of any degree of monetary stimulus.

As we highlighted in our most recent MPR, our approach will always be guided by comprehensive, considered analysis and informed judgment rather than by mechanical rules. This is particularly important in the current environment of material external headwinds. To state the obvious, if the outlook for growth and inflation changes, the path for monetary policy will be affected accordingly.

Second, the bank will take the necessary steps to ensure that core funding markets remain liquid. In the event of a major systemic shock, the bank has a wide range of tools to provide exceptional liquidity, consistent with a principles-based framework. At the same time, central bank liquidity should not be a substitute for sound risk management by private financial institutions. Accordingly, the bank will continue to work with OSFI to guard against moral hazard by ensuring that private banks maintain adequate liquidity buffers.

Third, we must continue to build a more resilient financial system in Canada and globally. Recent events underscore the importance of implementing G-20 financial reforms, notably the capital liquidity requirements under Basel III. Given the leading positions of our banks and the consistency of the new standards with Canada's, now is not the time for Canada to move from the front to the back of the class. Moreover, it is in Canada's interest to ensure that others follow our example. This will reduce the risk that another foreign financial crisis sideswipes our economy.

Fourth, the bank will continue to work with its federal partners to monitor risks to financial stability and to develop appropriate responses. An example has been the measured approach to rising household indebtedness. Since 2008, the federal government has taken a series of prudent and timely measures to tighten mortgage insurance requirements in order to support the long-term stability of the Canadian housing market.

Finally, since the biggest risks to our economy come from abroad, the bank must work with its international colleagues as they tackle the twin challenges of reducing excessive private and public debt. This situation is most acute in Europe, where credible national fiscal plans need to be supplemented by broader changes to European economic governance and fiscal arrangements.

We are in constant, intensive discussions with our European colleagues bilaterally and through the G-7, the G-20, the Bank for International Settlements and the Financial Stability Board.

As the bank has stressed repeatedly, the core challenge is to rebalance demand between advanced and emerging economies. To this end, the bank is investing in current G-20 efforts to develop a framework for open capital flows, working with the FSB to devise and implement comprehensive financial reforms.

We are also collaborating with our colleagues in the Department of Finance to guide the G-20 framework for strong, sustainable and balanced growth. Rebalancing will require significant changes to fiscal, structural and exchange rate policies across a broad range of countries.

To conclude, the challenges in the current global economic environment are significant, but so too are the opportunities for Canada. Our corporations and governments have strong balance sheets, our financial institutions are among the most resilient in the world, and our economy can be geared to the future sources of global growth. To take advantage of these attributes, we will need continued heavy investment to improve productivity as well as sustained and innovative efforts to develop new markets.

For its part, the bank has a wide range of tools and policy options that it will continue to deploy as appropriate in order to ensure that Canadians can seize these opportunities in an environment of domestic macroeconomic and financial stability.

With that, Mr. Chair, Tiff and I would be pleased to take your questions.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much for your remarks, Mr. Carney.

We will begin members' questions with Ms. Nash, please.

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Governor Carney; it's good to see you again, and hello, Mr. Macklem. Thank you both for coming in over the summer months. We appreciate it.

You began speaking about the global situation and the potential downturn because of the political issues in the U.S. lthat led to the debt ceiling agreement. My question is about the outcome of the debt ceiling agreement.

We saw the downgrade by Standard and Poor's and the gyrations in the stock market. As part of that agreement, there are going to be spending cuts imposed by the U.S. government in exchange for the increased debt ceiling, which is going to be revisited in 2012. The United States is our largest trading partner, and 70% of our exports go there. Could you describe the potential impacts of those cuts on the Canadian economy?

10:15 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Mark Carney

Thank you, as it is a very important question. Let me say three things, if I may, about the debt ceiling agreement.

The first is that it should be recognized that the process through which this agreement was arrived at contributed to the level of uncertainty in global financial markets, compounding a concern about policy processes in major economies in the U.S. and in Europe, although for different reasons in Europe, obviously. That process contributed to some of the uncertainty and volatility in financial markets.

The second thing, to go straight to your question, is the actual direct impact of the debt ceiling agreement. I'm going to add a caveat with a subpoint, but at first blush the incremental impact of the debt ceiling agreement on our forecast for the United States will be in the order of 0.2 percentage points off GDP growth next year and something similar in 2013. That's not the sum total of fiscal drag in the United States; as I said in my opening remarks, fiscal drag will be considerable on current plans--on all the other fiscal plans in place going forward from this point-- but there is an incremental impact, and the devil is in the details here because, as you know, the specific spending reductions have not been decided. The bipartisan committee will make some of these decisions or recommendations, and the nature of those decisions could change that number. It could elevate that number and it's unlikely to reduce the number, so as that process unfolds, it will be very important that we monitor exactly what is decided.

The third point I would make on U.S. fiscal policy is that there is a countervailing aspect to it that will be part of this negotiation, that being whether some of the stimulus measures currently in place roll off in the United States. The most prominent example is the payroll tax cut, which is due to expire. The President indicated recently his desire to extend it. That would have a positive effect on U.S. output, but that's a decision for the American government to take.

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Thank you.

I want to make two quick points. I notice that the CPI is 2.7%, down from 3.1%. I think it is the first time since February that it has gone below 3%. It should give the bank room to keep interest rates low, which I'm not expecting you'll comment on.

I have one other quick question. Certainly the eurozone crisis is of great concern, and it is a real debt crisis, unlike the situation in the U.S. or even Canada. My question is about the potential impact of the eurozone crisis on our economy.

10:15 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Mark Carney

Let me say two things.

First, regarding the CPI number that came out today, both the headline and the core CPI numbers are consistent with our expectations in the monetary policy report.

Second, to your question on the eurozone, we've long identified the situation in the eurozone as one of the principal downside risks. Some of that risk has been realized, by which I mean the obvious volatility and the moves in financial markets as a result of the situation there. The other aspect of that risk is accelerated fiscal austerity in Europe as a whole, in part to address it, so related to the strains in financial markets are the constraints on the European financial system and its ability to extend credit. Both of those aspects will lower European growth, which is a major part of the global economy. It will have important spillover effects on the global economy and ultimately on Canada.

There is, then, the direct impact of the policy choices that have already been taken. The issue remains, though, as I said in my opening comments, that this is a very delicate situation that has not yet been fully addressed. Moreover, additional significant measures involving pretty fundamental changes to economic governance and fiscal arrangements as well as efficient use of the money that's been put aside already through the EFSF and other facilities are going to be very important in determining the ultimate outcome in Europe and, through both financial and real channels, the impact on Canada.

We've realized some of this downside risk. That's one of the reasons we think there's a little less momentum going forward, and elements of that downside risk unquestionably still exist.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Van Kesteren, please.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Governor, for joining us this morning.

I want to shift a little bit and talk about some of the things we need to do. I want to talk about trade and the need to diversify our trading relationships.

We talked earlier this morning about the strong relationship we have with the United States and the emerging markets. You've spoken about that. I want to quote briefly from a speech you gave at the Canadian Club of Ottawa recently. You said:

The financial crisis has accelerated the shift in the world's economic centre of gravity. Emerging-market economies now account for almost three-quarters of global growth—up from just one-third at the turn of the millennium.

That's profound. We've done a good job in this country with NAFTA in the western hemisphere. We've expanded that to the Central American and South American countries. We've seen our Prime Minister active in Brazil and in other emerging markets, such as India and China.

I would like you to share your long-term outlook for emerging markets with the committee. Especially, to what degree do you expect the shift to emerging markets to continue? What does that imply for the importance of Canada's pursuit of trade diversification?