Finance Committee on Sept. 26th, 2012

[Stephen Ashworth]

Yes.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

As well, it's probably something that has the most repercussions on them and their personal lives if the government gets it wrong.

[Stephen Ashworth]

Yes.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Absolutely, and I agree. And this is not to say that governments ever make mistakes, but certainly it's important that the government gets it right, does proper consultation, and comes out with a step-by-step procedure to make sure not only that it's the right procedure but that Canadians understand it and have the ability to have due process in it. Would that be fair?

[Stephen Ashworth]

Yes.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Okay. And that in essence is exactly what we're doing, wouldn't you say?

[Stephen Ashworth]

Yes.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you.

The next question I have is regarding the issue with the provinces.

I know you mentioned some of the books that you have, Gary, if you don't mind me calling you that, and you provide them. I think you mentioned 300,000 copies. Do you envision some amount of leadership by the federal government? Of course, most of these issues are provincial. How do you see us getting involved to encourage the provinces to utilize these books? Are they copyrighted? Can they utilize them freely, without any cost?

[Gary Rabbior]

It's all free and open. We're a national organization, and we're....

I'll give you one example, because it started with Manitoba. We do all the work for Manitoba. Manitoba has all the final say. We work with a stakeholders group to determine what's going to be integrated into the curriculum. We work with the curriculum people to determine where it's going to be integrated. We develop the lesson plan material for them to use for integration. We do the teacher training for them to implement it in the schools. We do that all in collaboration with Manitoba. We're doing it now with Saskatchewan. We're just about to sign an agreement with Alberta.

The provinces don't have expertise in this area. They welcome us as a national organization, bringing that expertise and our contacts with other organizations, because we bring all those resources to bear. Working in collaboration with organizations like ours, I think the federal government would find the provinces very open to how they could assist the provinces to do this in a better way.

One of the areas in which I can foresee it happening is that the schools are starved for capital equipment in terms of the new technologies that are needed to bring the new learning methodologies into the schools. They can't afford it, and we see them suffering for it. The things we can do for the schools, if they have the capital equipment in place for us to be able to put it into each classroom, are phenomenal.

I think if there were a deal between the federal government and the provinces for how we could put a laptop and an LCD projector into every classroom, so that from the Internet we could deliver teaching lessons into those classrooms by the best of the best that we have, you could transform things.

I think there's extraordinary opportunity, and I think the provinces are willing.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Do you see any other leadership role besides money? I mean, obviously money is one way that we could do so, but it is a provincial issue. It's provincial jurisdiction. They have ultimate control. There is only one taxpayer, and ultimately everybody wants more money for everything across the country.

Do you see any way that the federal government can deal with the provinces in a non-financial role?

[Gary Rabbior]

Yes. We certainly develop resources, with funding from the federal government, that we openly put into the schools. There is nothing to stop the provision of resources. As long as they can scrutinize them and make sure they're effective for what they're trying to do in terms of producing teaching materials, lesson plans, and opportunities for training, they can choose to use it. If it's good stuff, they'll use it. You don't have to mandate it. You don't have to say you're doing it for them. You just do it, and if it works, it works.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I just want to say in closing that I agree with your comment in relation to “maximizing rightness”. I've been trying to maximize the right for a long time—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

—and we're going to continue.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Jean.

Mr. Mai, you have the floor.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Gentlemen, I want to thank you once again for appearing today.

In this case, the lack of depth is one of the reasons we are somewhat reluctant with respect to this bill. Ms. Nash also discussed that. The Canadian Bar Association, in its letter dated September 14 regarding Bill C-28, says the following: “It is not clear whether the Financial Literacy Leader is intended to fulfill the role of the national leader recommended in the Financial Literacy Task Force Report.”

The Minister of State Finance was also asked some questions about the recommendations made by the task force, on the one hand, and about the bill's content, on the other hand. What came to light was that the leader had the possibility or the option to follow those recommendations, but that was not really set out in writing.

In addition, the Canadian Bar Association pointed out that the bill is not specific enough. It said the following: “[...] it is difficult to see how the activities of the Financial Literacy Leader could be evaluated. Too much generality can lead to unfocussed activity.”

I am sure you have read the second recommendation, which talks about an advisory council that would make a broader approach possible.

I think you said, Mr. Rabbior, that this report has been available for a long time. It has taken a long time for us to get to the first stage. We have indicated our willingness by strongly supporting the motion moved by Mr. Rajotte, as we feel that this is very important in terms of financial literacy. What we want is an applicable system that would work quickly to really tackle the problem.

Could you tell us about how the leader's role could be judged or evaluated? What would be the way to do so? Was the second recommendation a good one in terms of that? Do you want me to read the recommendation?

[Gary Rabbior]

If the question pertains particularly—if you are concerned about the accountability of the leader, and the mandate of the leader, and how to assess whether the leader actually performed the functions and to what degree, I guess there are two things. One is that I would assess the leader's outcome based on the feedback you would get from the organizations in the field who are doing this work who could probably judge whether or not the leadership we aspire to is being provided.

The caution I would put in place—and this spans many boundaries of evaluation—is that we are so off base in evaluation these days. If it can't be measured, it doesn't get funded. If it can be measured, it does get funded. We're getting things funded that shouldn't be funded because you can generate numbers, and things that just make sense don't get funded because you can't show the numbers.

When we are talking about human behaviour and we are doing that in financial literacy, our goal is actually to change the way Canadians will behave. We aren't going to be able to give them a test next week to see if we're progressing in that area. The assessment of whatever the leader is going to do will be more about whether or not there is a collective feeling among the field that we're moving in the right direction.

I would fear putting measurable outcomes on a leader's shoulders and saying we're going to hold them accountable to those numbers, because what we're trying to do, in many ways, can't be measured effectively.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

My argument wasn't really in terms of evaluating the leader but more in terms of consultation, getting everyone together, and making sure that the national strategy regarding financial literacy would be discussed among people from all over, and not just focus on one sector or one industry. That was more the point of view I had.

Quickly, do any of you have a definition of financial literacy? I would just like to see how different—

[Stephen Ashworth]

Can I suggest something, because you only have a minute? I have read the blues and all of those things. I think that's a dangerous place to go, because it really takes away from some of the focus of what it means to the different age groups we have here. We could all come up with definitions about wise career decision-making. It's about understanding debt load and all these things. Really, to demystify it for the average Canadian is a greater concern. That's why when I hear people talk about financial literacy...that leader needs to make sure it becomes a household conversation—probably not using that nomenclature. You can spend a whole lot of time in that space and not get a whole lot done. That's my opinion.

[Gary Rabbior]

In the schools, for example, we have 10 pages that map over three levels of learning—elementary, middle school, and high school. There's progressive development across those ages that really maps out the areas of knowledge, skills, and behaviour that we think constitute financial literacy. I do think you have to have some sense of what you are trying to do. Ontario, for example, has mandated that financial education will be integrated into the curriculum. They haven't said what. They haven't said where. They haven't said who or how. It's not being done.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

We will go to Mr. Armstrong, please.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

I like that comment. I'm going to pick up there, and I'll give it a bit of a preamble.

I'm a substitute on this committee, but I do have 18 years as an educator—as a classroom teacher, a principal, and a university professor. I have taught at all three levels. I have taught every grade in the classroom, from grade 4 right to post-doctoral studies, so I know a little bit about curriculum limitation.

We have thousands of students going to their first year of university this year, and when they walk onto a campus, I'm sure one of the first experiences they have is some sort of bank shoving a credit card into their hand.

Would you agree that's what happens when you start university?

[Gary Rabbior]

It can happen before that.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

And sometimes it happens before that. I think it's obvious that we need to get into the public schools to make sure that the students are prepared for that eventuality—the bank coming after them to try to get them into the credit card system.

If we do need to get into the public school system, of course, the role of the financial literacy leader will be to work with the provinces and try to make sure we implement some sort of curriculum.

In my background as a principal, I've implemented lots of curricula, and it goes back to what you were saying, Mr. Rabbior. I've implemented curricula to make friends, cooperate, read, write, type and text, dress appropriately, eat healthy, exercise, think critically; to learn basic math, history, geography, a second language, or English; and to learn about public speaking, self-esteem, self-discipline, cooperative learning, music appreciation, not bullying, valuing other's opinions, avoiding gangs and crime, caring for the environment, and becoming religiously tolerant.

The education system is inundated by all kinds of different groups trying to throw curriculum in and to jam curriculum in. It's probably one of the reasons that in Ontario you don't know what, where, or when.

In order for this to work—and I do believe it's very important—it's going to have to become a priority. I think that's a role for this leader.

As a principal, to cut through that, I said to my staff at the elementary level, “I want you to focus on one thing. If you do one thing, make sure we make our students literate.” I was talking, of course, about the ability to read, primarily, because if you have the ability to read, you can teach yourself anything else at any given time. I believe that the ability to read is the newest human right. I really do believe that.

It goes back to what you were saying, Mr. Rogers. You talked about the target of this primarily being our newcomers, our first nations communities, our youth in care, and our low-income people. All of those groups have a lack of literacy to begin with. If they don't have the ability to read, it's going to be very hard for them to pick up financial literacy later on.

If I were going back to being a principal now, after becoming a member of Parliament and going through the recession we went through and seeing the difficulties people are having with their finances, I think I would tell my teachers to focus not only on becoming literate and being able to read but also on becoming financially literate. I think I would make that a priority in my school, cutting through all those other things.

But it's going to be a difficult thing to implement in schools, in curriculum, because of all the things it's competing with. It's going to take a driving force.

Do you think a role for this leader would be to become that driving force across the nation to work with the provinces to make this a priority for curriculum implementation? I'm going to start with Mr. Rabbior and move down.

[Gary Rabbior]

I wouldn't drive it; I would steer it. I think everything you've listed and what you taught in school I could probably attach a financial lesson plan to.

Right now we're not putting new outcomes and expectations in the schools because there are already about four times too many. We need to attach opportunities to learn about money to the things they're learning in school. That's what we do in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta.

I think if they would try to drive it in the schools.... I'll come back to saying how you do it is more important than what you do. If you work with the provinces well, they'll welcome whatever you do. If it looks as though you're riding on a horse and are going to tell them what to do, I think they'll push back.

I think there's a real role to play there. I think they're willing to go along, but I think it's really important how it's done.