Finance Committee on Sept. 26th, 2012

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I would—

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You're already at five minutes, Ms. Nash.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Oh, I'm there already? That's five minutes? Yikes.

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Ms. Nash.

We'll go to Mr. Hoback, please.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here this afternoon. It's really interesting. I was taking notes on some of the things.

Mr. Fair, you talked about newcomers and aboriginal communities. Do you think there is a certain demographic that really needs this type of literacy, or is it general right across all age groups and different demographics? What would you say to that?

I think I'll go through the whole group and just see....

[Gary Rabbior]

I would certainly say there's no stipulated group or priority groups. It's funny—we're dealing with one of the banks on a project right now, and the irony of it all is that the kids of their wealthy clients get virtually no financial education. They get no discipline on distinguishing between needs and wants. It's basically, “I do what I want”, and when they get out on their own, they're in debt. They're lost. They haven't had any guidance.

There are definitely those who need it more than others, certainly in the aboriginal community. Newcomers have to learn about a new system. I think all of us are involved in activities to try to address those things at the community level. There are priority needs. One might be inclined to think, “Oh, these groups need it and not so much these groups.”

It is something that's quite universal. The imperative might be different among certain targeted groups, but I wouldn't exclude anybody from needing this. We were surprised that even kids of the wealthiest families have no clue about a lot of this. That's why you get this intergenerational thing where one guy sets it up, the next generation builds it, and the third generation destroys it. The same thing can happen with money. You might know what you're doing, the next one doesn't know so much, and the next one really gets into trouble. I wouldn't want to carve it out and say...but there are certainly areas of priority, for sure.

[Stephen Ashworth]

I'll say it very quickly. Across the country, we look at inclusivity as being the key point and the opportunity for students in that space. Aboriginals are certainly an area where we've been doing extensive work, as are those students who are at risk.

With regard to Gary's point, I'm speaking with someone regarding mental health and looking at that. These people have a right and an opportunity to be serviced as well.

[Adam Fair]

Just quickly—and this is my bias—middle- and upper-income people have a little bit more in the way of resources to get advice, to get advisors. There's more information available to individuals. For us, where there is a lack of clear information that's tailored to communities is in the low-income and vulnerable communities. Those often include first nations communities and newcomers to the country, but they can also include youth who are living in care who are trying to transition into adulthood. There are some really key places we can start to focus some of this work.

[Mack Rogers]

Very quickly, our primary concern is about low literacy. Those are the groups for whom accessing information on financial literacy is extremely difficult. Even for those of us with university degrees, it's difficult to read the back of a visa statement, but people with low literacy really struggle, and they're the group that we think need to be focused on.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Let me lead into my next question.

A lot of you are talking about the same types of priorities, whether aboriginals or newcomers. Do you see a coordination role that the financial literacy person, that leader, can play to ensure that you get the best synergies amongst yourselves to get an effective program nationwide? Is that something you see as a role this person could serve?

[Adam Fair]

The question was, could he harness the collective energy around these particular groups? Absolutely. It's already happening in a lot of ways. It might just be having them catalyze, implement, or add resources or expertise to energies that are already doing this work. Right now, we're in consultations with the aboriginal financial officers of Canada, trying to figure out how we might create a collective strategy for first nations financial literacy across the country. That would need to be adapted in different communities, but I think the leader would definitely help to provide guidance on that.

[Gary Rabbior]

I think the leader—he or she—faces a real opportunity in the sense that we need research. There are a lot of things we don't know, and we all know the things we don't know. That leader could work with us to help us, and I think that kind of role and the collaboration that we could identify are needs that we all share, because a lot of us have common needs and some of us have unique needs. But we would welcome some leadership to help us learn from one another and to be a catalyst for that kind of change.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I think I'll stop there, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hoback.

Mr. Caron, go ahead.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for coming to meet with us. You seem to be very dedicated to the cause. I don't usually use interpretation, but I think I have found in Mr. Rabbior someone who can give the interpreters more of a challenge than I can.

Obviously, one of our roles as the opposition is to point out any elements we see as weaknesses in bills, so that we can perhaps examine them. One such element has to do with the new leader's job description and the fact that no clause requires that person to be bilingual.

Given the presumption that the leader will have work to do in Quebec and in francophone communities outside Quebec, do you feel that the new leader should be bilingual in order to be able to fulfill his or her mandate? The question is for all three guests. You can answer with a yes or no.

[Gary Rabbior]

I have a bias because of...or you'd think I'd have a bias because I am not fully bilingual. My kids are. One of my daughters is studying in France right now.

We have five board members in Quebec. We're very active in Quebec. I lead the organization and we function very well in that regard.

Would it be preferable? I guess I would say yes. Is it a requirement? I don't know. We work with so many people in a collaborative way in Quebec who give us support. I think they could find a way to do it.

I guess I'm less inclined, even though my gut tells me yes, people would like it to be so. I'm not sure I would insist that it has to be so, because this is a unique field. There are not a lot of people involved in it. I think it's important to get the right person.

If the right person didn't happen to be bilingual—a unilingual francophone or a unilingual anglophone—but did happen to be the right person and could get that right team together and work with the people the right way, for me that would dominate everything. You just don't have a lot of talent in this field that could provide the leadership that I think all of us are looking for.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

I will move on to another question, which concerns another weakness. I refer to a letter prepared and sent by the Canadian Bar Association, which calls attention to a few weaknesses of Bill C-28 that we have also pointed out. I think one of them is especially relevant. I will read it quickly:

[...] the activities of the Financial Literacy Leader are intended to be broader or different in scope than those of the Commissioner. If they are not related to the activities and communications of financial institutions, we do not believe that financial institutions should be subject to an assessment. Further, funding by financial institutions with respect to regulation of their activities is not conducive to an independent objective approach.

When I spoke to the minister, during his appearance on Monday, I mentioned that there could be some confusion regarding the role of financial institutions, that this was perhaps an attempt to create good consumers for financial institutions and banks. Don't you think there would be something of a conflict of interest or contradiction in asking financial institutions to make contributions for the kind of training or mandate that will be given to the leader?

[Stephen Ashworth]

I hope I can answer your question correctly. I just want to mention that Junior Achievement does currently get funding through banks, and we feel there's no conflict of interest in that regard, so I'm trying to provide a model that actually reflects that currently. Even though that would be a very different situation for the leader, I think it is something that obviously would have to be enshrined in the legislation. I think obviously it's a concern, but I don't personally see that as an issue at this time.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Debt is often brought up. My colleague, Mr. Van Kesteren, talked about elements that led to debt or encouraged having a larger debt. One of those elements is easier access to credit, especially credit cards. Some financial institutions are even in part responsible for the greater availability of credit cards, which facilitate the incurring of debt. They are also responsible—at least from a financial standpoint through contributions—for the leader's programs or mandate. So there is a major contradiction there. Do you not see a contradiction in what the bill proposes?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Just a brief response, please, for about 30 seconds. Who would like to answer that one?

[Gary Rabbior]

I will, very quickly. For our part, we work with all the financial institutions. Most of the financial institutions know that they don't know how to do what we're doing. You could argue that there's self-interest on the banks' part to use that, but I think that in the long term and in the bigger vision for what we see them working with, they aren't out to do this to exploit. I think there's a recognition that if people handle their financial affairs better, everybody works out to be better off, including the financial institutions. We certainly find them to be totally open to what we want to do.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Merci.

We'll go to Mr. Jean, please.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for attending today.

I have to tell you that I have a special affinity for Junior Achievement. I actually taught in Fort McMurray for five years. I found it a very rewarding experience—and at different levels. I had one class that was made up of disadvantaged youths who for the most part were aboriginal, and I found it very rewarding to speak on their level and to educate them. To be honest, I found them to be much more practical in some aspects. I want to applaud you and your group. You do great work all across this country.

I'm interested in what our progress has been thus far as a government. I think you would agree with me that so far, in relation to our main goal, the financial literacy task force report and the consultation process have been good. Would you agree with me?

Unfortunately, the mikes can't hear you nod.

[Voices]

Yes.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Yes? Thank you.

The other issue, of course, is that financial literacy is probably the most important thing that we as a government could train people on in Canada—to take care of their own finances. Would that also be true?