Evidence of meeting #74 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4 p.m.
Senior Chief, Strategic Planning and Trade, Department of Finance
The answer, as far as I know, is no.
My colleague is just reminding me that is a Governor in Council appointment, so it is the Governor in Council who will decide that.
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Thank you, Mr. Brison.
Shall clause 5 carry? Shall clause 6 carry?
4 p.m.
Some hon. members
On division.
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
(Clauses 5 and 6 agreed to on division)
(On clause 7—Powers, duties and functions of Financial Literacy Leader)
We have amendment NDP-5 for clause 7, in the name of Mr. Thibeault.
Would you like to move and speak to that amendment?
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Glenn Thibeault NDP Sudbury, ON
Of course, Mr. Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to once again move this amendment.
This amendment seeks to clarify some of the subjective language in the bill. As it stands, the bill states that he or she may carry on any activity that he or she considers necessary. This gives the financial literacy leader a free reign over all activities without tying that person to best practices or stakeholder advice. In our opinion, making the language more objective removes those risks.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Certainly I don't perceive this language in the same way the NDP does. It's very clear that the financial literacy leader is the one who determines other activities as necessary in furtherance of the objective. I think this was drafted in a very specific way for a specific reason, and I think it's moving forward in a good way in that respect.
I think your amendment would actually make it more confusing. Perhaps Ms. Ryan or Mr. Behboodi could speak to why the language was developed in that specific way.
October 1st, 2012 / 4:05 p.m.
Rambod Behboodi General Counsel, General Legal Services, Department of Finance
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
The specific drafting is done to avoid confusion. Whenever you have a phrase that is in the passive language, such as “considered necessary” in the proposed amendment, it becomes very difficult to determine who considers it necessary. By what measure do you determine that it is “considered necessary”?
What you have identified as a subjective element I think, with respect, should be viewed in the context of the act as a whole and of this act. It is not that the financial literacy leader may consider one thing or the other necessary depending on a personal whim, but rather in accordance with the objects of the act itself.
It is a canon of executive action, whatever the executive, that the executive or the appointed person acts only in furtherance of the statutory instrument that grants the executive the authority to act. In this particular instance, the authorities and the objectives and everything are set out in this act and in the context of the FCAC Act as a whole, so when you have a phrase such as “he or she considers necessary”, it is considered necessary in those two contexts.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Thank you.
Is there any further discussion?
Go ahead, Mr. Thibeault.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Glenn Thibeault NDP Sudbury, ON
Can you clarify that again? We have our amendment saying:
He or she may carry on any activity considered necessary in the furtherance of that
The bill itself reads:
He or she may carry on any activity that he or she considers necessary in furtherance of that purpose
Can you explain that to me one more time in terms of the difference? I'm really not understanding what you're trying to say.
4:05 p.m.
General Counsel, General Legal Services, Department of Finance
Excuse me for not being clear.
The financial literacy leader is appointed as one person under the authority of the Governor in Council. That one person may exercise his or her functions in accordance with the act, so at any given point you can trace the authority and trace what he or she may consider necessary back to the act.
When you have language that is phrased in the passive voice, in this case “considered necessary” rather than “he or she considers it necessary”, it's not at all clear who considers it necessary or by what measure that necessity is determined or considered, which is why, to the extent possible, drafting tends to concentrate on ensuring that a single person who is appointed, or a single entity who is appointed, is held accountable for decisions and for determinations on necessity, in accordance with the statutory instrument.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Glenn Thibeault NDP Sudbury, ON
Just for follow-up, then, is this common language that is used? I ask because it doesn't seem that it's been done regularly.
4:10 p.m.
General Counsel, General Legal Services, Department of Finance
I must confess I have not done the research on the gamut of Parliament's enactments, but it is a rule of statutory drafting that, to the extent possible, one wants to attach such judgments to the person exercising the authority under Parliament's authority.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Is there any further discussion on the amendment?
I'll call amendment NDP-5.
(Amendment negatived)
(Clauses 7 to 13 inclusive agreed to on division)
(On clause 14)
On clause 14, we have amendment NDP-6.
Mr. Thibeault, would you again like to move that amendment and speak to it?
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Glenn Thibeault NDP Sudbury, ON
Thank you once again, Mr. Chair. Of course I'd like to move this amendment and speak to it.
What we're trying to do here is strengthen the reporting standards of the financial literacy leader by requiring the FCAC to report on the outcomes of the financial literacy leader's strategy. As the bill stands, he or she would simply have to list the actions that they have taken without any reference to the success that could be there.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Again I perceive that we have something that is redundant and duplicative, because the bill already contemplates a report to Parliament by the FCAC on its financial literacy activities. Of course, part of that would be in terms of an assessment of the leader in this report. In its annual report tabled in Parliament, FCAC really does report on the success of its activities in strengthening financial literacy.
Perhaps the officials could make a brief comment to reassure Mr. Thibeault that this area is important and is addressed within the bill.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
4:10 p.m.
Senior Chief, Strategic Planning and Trade, Department of Finance
Yes, it is very much the case that the annual report of the FCAC will require a description of the financial literacy activities undertaken by the FCAC. That current provision, as drafted, empowers that report to be required before Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Glenn Thibeault NDP Sudbury, ON
Ms. Ryan, what we were hoping with the amendment was to have more than just the actions listed. Will they be referencing the successes of what they are doing, or are they just required to state what they did?
4:10 p.m.
Senior Chief, Strategic Planning and Trade, Department of Finance
In its annual report now, with respect to compliance, FCAC describes its activities, its successes, its improvements year to year, so it would do that for financial literacy as well.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Thank you.
Did that convince you?
We'll call NDP-6, then.
(Amendment negatived).
(Clauses 14 and 15 agreed to on division)
Shall clause 1 carry?
(Clause 1 agreed to on division)
Shall the title carry?
