Finance Committee on Oct. 17th, 2012

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

That's excellent. Thank you very much.

Mr. Atkinson, I'm going to continue with the same questions.

How do we encourage the private sector to build in places—I'm from Fort McMurray—keeping in mind the situations that are happening? It's also happening to my other constituents who are from Newfoundland, and in other areas of the country, especially the north.

How do we do so without putting money into it? Because governments, in my opinion, are not very good at spending money. We've done a great job with the economic action plan and the $45 billion included, but how do we do so...? Do we do it through tax incentives? Do we do it through tax credits or maybe a rebate on the GST in certain areas to do builds in residential or commercial to alleviate some of the problems?

In one minute, what would you tell me to do?

[Michael Atkinson]

Just so I understand your question, you're talking with respect to finding additional funding options for public infrastructure or...?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

No. I'm talking about construction to get the private sector into it, such as PPPs and things like that. How do we do it in particular areas?

[Michael Atkinson]

One of the things I think we have to do with respect to public-private partnerships is get the transactional cost down. Right now, because they are so expensive to deal with because of the legal agreements, complexities, etc., you need a minimum threshold of project size or value before it makes any sense. We have to do something about bringing those transactional costs down before they're going to become lucrative for municipalities, for example.

Number two, very quickly, one of the constraints Canadian firms have in participating in concessions, particularly where they're foreign-led, is that our balance sheets aren't as healthy as those of the European contractors, for example, because we've relied on the surety bonding mechanism to leverage our balance sheets by a factor of 15 to 20 times. Surety bonding is unknown in Europe. When it's a foreign-led concession, particularly from Europe, they demand letters of credit. They will not accept surety bonds. It puts Canadian design/build companies at a disadvantage in those circumstances.

So in looking at how you can incent more Canadian homegrown—if you will—P3 participants, look at some of the financing restraints.

One last one...?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Very briefly, please.

[Michael Atkinson]

Extend EDC's domestic powers: that's a big help to our firms getting involved in those large financing arrangements.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Jean.

Monsieur Caron, s'il vous plaît.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much. I am going to share my time with Mr. Mai.

Ms. Delomier, what you were saying echoes what I have been hearing in my riding of the Lower St. Lawrence. I would like to ask you three related questions. Then I will turn things over to Mr. Mai.

How long have you been developing and presenting your recommendations to the government? What has been the response of the government or governments so far to those recommendations? What do you think is the importance of these measures for the survival of family farms as opposed to large integrators?

[Magali Delomier]

I will address the various points that I presented with respect to the different scales of application. When we talk about a strong agricultural policy, certainly that is something we have always been fighting for. The recent cuts that were imposed with respect to Growing Forward do not move in that direction at all.

Concerning the tax measures and the transfer savings fund, we presented that to this committee a long time ago, back in 2006. It was not presented by my organization, but by the Union des producteurs agricoles.

With respect to the Canadian Young Farmers' Forum, that is a fairly recent recommendation. In fact, since the agreement needs to be renewed next year, it is urgent to share the necessity of renewing the agreement.

What were your other questions?

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

How important are the measures you are suggesting for the survival of family farms compared to large integrators?

[Magali Delomier]

It is critical. As soon as we allow family operations to be transferred as such, we are maintaining a family kind of agricultural system. As soon as we permit the transfer from generation to generation, we make it possible to maintain the family farm model we know in Quebec.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Would it be fair to say that, so far, the various governments or the government have not listened to your recommendations?

[Magali Delomier]

We have made our requests.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Very well. Thank you.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Peterson, is there a difference between cap and trade and a carbon tax?

[Robert Peterson]

As a lawyer, I'm probably not the best person to speak on that.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

That's fine. Do you believe in polluter pay...?

[Robert Peterson]

I think it's a principle that's being widely endorsed in the legal system throughout much of the world.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I've seen in your report on your website that you find there's chronic under-enforcement in terms of inspection, investigation, charges, and convictions under the Fisheries Act. Enforcement has declined since 2002-03. In the most recent years, you say also that the number of inspections and warnings under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act has declined since 2005-06, and investigations, prosecutions, and convictions have also declined steadily since 2003-04.

[Robert Peterson]

It's our understanding that the number of prosecutions leading to conviction is very low, meaning that under CEPA in recent years I saw a number of around 20. I can't pinpoint the year, but that gives a sense of the number.

One would expect more than that. They may be settling out, or there may be compromises, but ultimately, part of the reason we're advocating a database is that so you can gain access to that information and know what exactly is happening with these files and how many are going to conviction. That's part of the accountability in ensuring that government agencies and public servants are enforcing the laws on the books.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

By enforcing the law, the federal government could get more revenue.

[Robert Peterson]

Certainly, fines go back to the crown, so there's no disincentive to offsetting the cost of the prosecution by collecting the fine at the end of the day, and sometimes costs can be awarded in certain settings.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Do you think the fact that Environment Canada has cut 700 jobs will help the budget or will it help in terms of enforcement?

[Robert Peterson]

Without getting into politics too much, it doesn't sound as though a cut like that enhances capacity.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Mai.

We'll go to Ms. Glover and Ms. McLeod, who are sharing the final round, please.