Finance Committee on Oct. 29th, 2012

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Scott Brison]

You have two and a quarter minutes.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

You were questioning earlier the relationship some governments have with unions, a closed shop. Let's speak to Ontario. You have the legal right in Ontario, as an organization, to negotiate those.

[Terrance Oakey]

Absolutely, and we respect that.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

The reason that began—to go back to Mr. Hoback's question—was that for a long time there was a superior skill level with the unionized workers. As part of being part of a union, workers had their training in-house and they got to a Red Seal level of training, which provided a broad range of skill sets that many people would like to use and contract in for the long term.

They don't represent housing. They just represent the construction trades for big developments and manufacturing.

By putting that on the table, nobody is saying the workers you employ are not skilled workers, but that was the reason for those original contracts; it was to lock them in.

The other problem you have in the eastern part of the country, as we know, is the loss of these workers headed west now. There is a real effort on the part of unions to match up the work here that still needs to be done, so there is plenty of work to go around now.

I think that does my time.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Scott Brison]

You have 20 seconds.

[Terrance Oakey]

Do you want me to respond?

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's fine, if you feel—

[Terrance Oakey]

I will just respond quickly. Merit contractor associations across the country spend millions of dollars on apprenticeship training. We also support public training that ensures that all of our workers are held to the same high standard as in any closed shop.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Scott Brison]

Thank you, Mr. Oakey, Mr. Marston.

Now, Mr. Adler.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I want to pursue my initial line of questioning with Ms. Leibovici. You mentioned in your submission that the property tax is a 19th century tool, and I would tend to agree with you there. The sort of golden era for Canadian cities I guess lasted up until about 25 years ago. I remember certainly in Toronto where we had garbage pickup twice a week, recycling once a week, and city services were all there, all free—well, paid through the property tax. But for a variety of reasons over the last 20, 25 years or so, cities are finding themselves with less and less cash.

As you know, in Toronto now, within the 416, the land transfer tax is double. They've been able to generate a lot of money through the doubling of the land transfer tax. Cities are having to become more and more creative in ways to raise revenue in order to deliver the services that citizens require. We also hear in Toronto that they're talking about a casino to raise money.

Could you talk a bit about the ways in which cities are going to have to think outside the box in terms of raising revenues to maintain the existing infrastructure, but also to expand the infrastructure they have currently, plus maintain a quality of life that the citizens of each city have been accustomed to? Could you please discuss that a bit?

[Karen Leibovici]

That's a tall order for however much time we have.

You're right in terms of the property tax base. The ways cities raise revenue is an old model, and there's lots of discussion happening with our provincial governments with regard to different forms of revenue sharing.

With regard to the infrastructure plan, one of the areas that we're looking at is the asset management capabilities of communities across this country. If we can measure and define the condition of assets across the country, then in fact we can start to look at how we deal with the infrastructure deficit that's there. Not all municipalities are doing that now.

However, it's something that is starting and is a good move forward. I think Ms. McLeod mentioned the three Ps. It is not a solution to every way going forward with a project, but it is perhaps one way that can be looked at in terms of moving forward in meeting our infrastructure needs. Obviously, some thinking out of the box and looking at innovative ways to do that will hopefully be part of a new plan as well.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Are there any examples that you have seen where cities have come up with unique and innovative ways to raise revenue?

[Karen Leibovici]

I don't know if it's unique, but I know in my own city of Edmonton we have analyzed our infrastructure needs and in fact we have a tax that is a line item for meeting our infrastructure needs for neighbourhoods throughout the city of Edmonton. Is that innovative? I'm not sure, but it's getting the job done.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

How do we compare to American cities on that score?

[Karen Leibovici]

American cities tend to have more federal funding and access to federal funds. They can raise bonds, where Canadian municipalities can't do that. They have different financing options from what we do here in Canada.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Are we restricted? Could you talk a bit about the bonds that cities are restricted from in order to raise money?

[Karen Leibovici]

We can't raise bonds.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Is that provincial legislation?

[Karen Leibovici]

I think so, yes, under our local government acts.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Mr. Oakey, could you talk a little bit about—and you had some anecdotal evidence at the very least—how the requirement to hire unionized labour has led to inferior—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Scott Brison]

Mr. Adler, that's five minutes actually.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Am I done?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Scott Brison]

If you could finish very briefly, Mr. Oakey can have a brief response, and that would be fine.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Okay.

Talk about how the requirement to hire unionized labour has led to an inferior product.