Evidence of meeting #11 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was process.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:20 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
I published an article on how Ottawa spends, in 1997. It was published by McGill-Queen's Press in this article called “Pink Slips and Running Shoes”. I documented it.
It was the largest downsizing in Canadian history—public sector or private sector. That article is on the record, with all the numbers.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Thank you very much.
Mr. Hoback, you have time for about a four-minute round.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Thank you.
Thank you, witnesses, for being here this morning.
Mr. Lee, I'm curious. I get concerned when you start comparing numbers at a macro level, like Mr. Thomas saying about $117,000, give or take a thousand, is where the public service is going to be versus the private sector.
Have you done a classification comparison? You said you look up numbers and you're independent.
12:25 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
I am doing that right now. I've been breaking it down, and it's a bit misleading to use that aggregated average.
I'm going to say something that's probably going to annoy two of the witnesses here. The imbalances at the lower level...and you already know that not only anecdotally, but the minimum starting wage in the private sector is about one-third of what it is in the Government of Canada.
There is a crossover. I have seen some studies, and one is from the Conference Board, that suggest the crossover is somewhere around director general. Those at the DG and above are actually paid less in the Government of Canada than in the private sector. You can get $5 million or $10 million at the very top in a large corporation in Toronto.
But at the lower levels, empirically, from everything I've seen so far, that's where they are paid more than in the private sector. The public sector at the lower levels are paid more than in the private sector at the lower levels.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Ms. Benson, from my perspective, I would think it would be better to get rid of the dead weight out of the public sector who are causing this bad reputation, which is a very small portion, and to deal with those people who are unhappy or who feel they are unchallenged or lazy, or whatever the case may be—they don't feel they have the time.... I think it would be better for everybody, for taxpayers. first of all, and of course your members are taxpayers, but also for the workers in the public service who do work their butt off, because a lot of them do. I see it in this place; 90% of the people are working extremely hard and are underpaid for what they do based upon the hours they put in.
There is that small portion who take advantage of the system. Wouldn't it be better to get rid of those people, to find a way to get them out of the system so they don't give this reputation, this contention, between government and public servant, and also public servant and, bluntly, the private sector—the 50% of Canadians who are employed by the private sector? Wouldn't it be better to do that?
12:25 p.m.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Well, Mr. Jean, there is a way to do that, quite frankly, and managers need to manage. We have never said that managers should not manage. Our members welcome that.
When Mr. Clement announced he was going to have performance management, I quickly said to him that he's had that, at least for the 33 years that I have been with the federal government.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
12:25 p.m.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Where was the manager?
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
12:25 p.m.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
That's the question that begs to be—
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Thank you.
Isn't it true that it's almost impossible to fire public servants after a certain stage?
12:25 p.m.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
No, it's not. I beg to differ.
Certainly if managers do their job, then they would be able to do that.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
12:25 p.m.
Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
The numbers speak for themselves: fewer than 100 for cause dismissals in a workforce of 193,000 people in a year.
12:25 p.m.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
You have very dedicated employees working for the federal government who have rigorous tests in order to get their position.
12:25 p.m.
A voice
Nobody buys it.
12:25 p.m.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Well, my members do buy it.
I think it's disrespectful.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Thank you.
Mr. Dachis, can I get you to comment on the essential services discussion we've had?
You've heard comments about what the legislation does. As Mr. Saxton pointed out, the definition of essential services does not change. Do you have a comment on the essential services changes?
12:25 p.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, C.D. Howe Institute
We can look at evidence in other provinces and at the federal jurisdiction as to, first of all, what you expect to happen and what does happen. What you can expect to happen with an essential services designation is that the costs to the employer of a strike become lower, in the sense that a minimum level of services do continue to be provided. That reduces the incentive for both sides, especially the employer, to come to the bargaining table.
There is some potential evidence that you do see slightly longer strikes. It's not exactly conclusive because there aren't a lot of strikes in the sectors that are covered by essential services designation. But you see this in the results of essential services workers having less bargaining power and lower wage growth.