Finance Committee on Nov. 26th, 2013

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

That's not a fair comparison. As Mr. Jean would say, that's what they're paying.

If we look across the board, if you were to make that comparison in Chatham, Ontario, my riding, you wouldn't find that. I'm not begrudging the public service. As has been said here a number of times, our public service is excellent, and we have excellent people. The fact of the matter is, it's the responsibility of government to keep the lights on. At what point is it our responsibility to make sure that we have parity and that we have some equality there?

[Robyn Benson]

Do you think, sir, that this should be a race to the bottom? Do you think that your employees should be making less? From my perspective, as the president of the PSAC, I don't believe that my membership deserve concessions. I believe they have strong collective agreements. I believe that they do a good job for the federal government. I think we should go into negotiations open-minded and have good solid discussions.

But to put within a budget bill changes to the Public Service Labour Relations Act, I think that's wrong. I don't believe that shows transparency. I don't believe that shows honesty. It certainly doesn't show that you want to have consultation with the stakeholders, which are the unions and others.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

How much time do I have, Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have about 40 seconds.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

I guess I'm not explaining myself well, and maybe I'm not getting my point across.

Let's talk about pensions. About 65% of Canadians are going to have CPP; they're going to have to wait until they're 65. If you look at the comparison in the public sector...and I know that in the private...but as I said to Mr. Stroud, that's falling apart at the seams. At what point do we say we need to have a system that's fair across the board? Is that something that you should discuss with your union members? Is it something that the—

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

A brief response, please.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

—government should be pushing forward?

[Robyn Benson]

I think the government should have consultation. I think Treasury Board should have consultation with respect to the benefits for their employees, my members.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren.

Mr. Côté, go ahead.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lee, even though I have a bachelor's degree and a background in science, I spent 12 years as a labourer in a warehouse. I loaded and unloaded delivery trucks alongside several guys who hadn't finished high school. I worked year-round in extreme conditions, in temperatures ranging from thirty below to plus thirty.

I also worked in Quebec's civil service, where I belonged to a union. So I've seen the issue from both sides. I must say I can't get over the levity in your presentation. You tried to play on our emotions by comparing the conditions of minimum wage earners with those of public servants. And yet, on April 25, that did not stop you from staunchly defending university professors, arguing they deserved their salaries—which are considerably higher than others'—as well as their status and their notoriously lower teaching load.

How can you address this committee with such levity?

[Dr. Ian Lee]

I wasn't defending university salaries on April 25 whatsoever. I think you brought it up, if I recall; I don't have the transcript. You brought it up in a reference to some comparative thing. I said that's under separate collective bargaining, and professors are unionized in most universities—not all universities—and in most colleges.

To come back to your primary point, you said it wasn't serious to point out the gap, the empirical wage gap, between the minimum starting salary in the private sector and the public sector. Maybe you're not familiar with comparative statistical analysis. Because I'm a tenured professor and I don't consult, I spend most of my time every day wandering through StatsCanada and Labour Canada databases. That's what I do all day long. I just look at government databases all the time and I look at comparative analyses from the OECD and so forth.

So to say that it's not relevant to show the minimum starting salary in the private sector, which is the floor of the floor of the floor, so the floor of the floor of the floor in the public sector is something I don't—quite frankly, I don't understand your question. Of course it's comparative, of course it's legitimate, and of course it's empirical.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Lee, I studied physics at university, so I'm fairly up on comparative statistics. That said, I'm going to move on to someone who takes this more seriously.

Ms. Benson, at the committee's first meeting on Bill C-4, with public servants in attendance, we discussed services defined as essential. I asked Dennis Duggan what recourse the bargaining unit, the union and employees would have to challenge the government on an essential service designation. And this was what he said:

As I mentioned earlier, the initial process would involve a consultation period with the bargaining agent in question, but beyond that it would be judicial review.

What do you make of this shift towards the courts, this threat to unilaterally designate any given function as an essential service? In fact, Mr. Duggan even went on to say that no class of employment in the federal public service could be excluded.

[Robyn Benson]

I thank you for that question. I'm going to ask Ms. Bramwell to come up as the technician to answer that, please.

[Edith Bramwell, Coordinator, Representation Section, Public Service Alliance of Canada]

The way in which Bill C-4 changes essential services is such that there is no definition anymore according to which the government can be held accountable as an employer when it designates its employees as essential.

What we had in the previous legislation was a reference to the safety and security of the public. The definition is actually somewhat broader than that, but those are the key terms. That's gone now, and what we have is wording that says that an essential service under clause 294 of Bill C-4 is anything the Government of Canada has determined is essential.

That has a very broad sweep in both directions. It means that the Government of Canada, as employer, can unilaterally declare an entire bargaining unit of any type of employee essential. I think that's what has been focused on.

It can also say that any type of service provided to Canadians is not essential. For example, the government could decide that the production of EI cheques, a topic which was referenced by the speaker, is not essential.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you. Merci.

I'm going to go next to Mr. Jean, for your round, please.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses today who have come to provide testimony.

I want to say, Ms. Benson, in reply to something you said to one of my colleagues, that it's not a race to the bottom. But it's not a race to the top, either.

I think it's about fairness and competitiveness, and that's why you have to look at the private sector. I'm from Fort McMurray. I've lived in Fort McMurray my entire life. I've operated and owned about 15 businesses there, everything from car washes to a law firm. I was a lawyer there for 11 years, and I've never seen more money paid for less work in my life than what I've seen generally around here. I'm not saying it's everybody. I'm not saying that at all, because some people work like dogs, bluntly, as was said by Mr. Stroud, and provide a tremendous service.

I find that, frankly, it's the exception rather than the rule who are not providing what they need to provide. I think that exception should be dealt with differently.

I do have some questions for Mr. Thomas. In particular, Mr. Thomas, I want to talk about the private sector because I think that's the only fair comparison for the public sector, not just on work but on basically what they provide to the economy.

I asked some questions like this yesterday.

There are about 1.1 million small businesses in Canada; 48% of the people in Canada are employed by small businesses, just over 5.1 million people; 86% of Canadian exporters were small businesses; 42% of the country's private sector GDP are small businesses; and 28% of the country's total GDP came from businesses employing fewer than 50 people. It's a very significant impact.

The most startling thing is—and I think, Ms. Benson, you should be aware of this—the average wage of these small business owners is $38,000 a year. In most cases, they can't collect EI or maternity benefits. They don't get sick days. They pay their taxes, they do what's necessary. I've heard some people say that they take cash under the table. I frankly find it astonishing that people believe that, because I've never found that. I find that small business owners are the most honest people that I've dealt with, because they understand how hard it is to make a buck, and they want to utilize taxes or what taxes give you, roads, bridges, streets, hospitals, etc.

Can you comment on that, in relation to competitiveness? I, bluntly, am astonished at the wages. As a lawyer, I had people in Fort McMurray with the highest income in Canada at $185,000 per household. As a lawyer, I had people make much less money than what the public service starts people at, for less experience.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

This question is for whom?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

It is for Mr. Thomas.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

This is for Mr. Thomas.

[Gregory Thomas]

There's no question that people working outside of government have to make do with considerably less, certainly in extended benefits, and certainly in pension benefits.

So much has been made of these 19,000 reductions in government employment. But in the space of six months, from 2008 to 2009, over 440,000 people lost their jobs—when government employment at the federal level was going up by 8,000 or 9,000. They didn't get committee hearings; they didn't get to come and plead their case. People lost jobs, they lost homes. That was a devastating period. People who went through that are unsung. They don't get hearings, tribunals, and appeals.

Going back to this case from the 15-page report, when this fellow was reinstated with his six-figure income, his rank, his classification, and his benefits, the adjudicator said he was partly acting through boredom and insufficient work. That was part of the rationale for the reinstatement.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Thomas and Mr. Lee, would you suggest that these changes by our government are going to bring it anywhere near a competitive process? Or is it going to remain the same—that competitively the public sector gets a much higher wage and benefit package than the private sector for the same work?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Can we get a brief response from either one of you?

Mr. Lee first.

[Dr. Ian Lee]

To respond to your question, and the comment by Mr. Keddy earlier, prior to collective bargaining, public servants were paid far less and they were dealt with very badly.

Now, over the past 40 years, the pendulum has swung the other way and gone to the other side. Now we're in the middle of a rebalancing of the pendulum. Will this one bill bring back equity or balance? No, to use a word that's been used a lot today, it's a process. That's got to continue in the future, not because we're bashing public servants, but because it's not fair to those....

I'm in the public service, and as Mr. Caron noticed, I'm paid very well, thank you very much. I'm not worried about me. I'm worried about those people in the private sector and small business who get lousy salaries, no pensions, and no sick leave. Those are the people I care about. If we care about social justice....

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Lee, I appreciate your answer.

I just want to say, wasn't it 13 or 14 years ago that we saw the biggest reduction in public servants, under the Liberals, that we've ever seen in this country?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay.