You have 30 seconds.
Evidence of meeting #22 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was debit.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #22 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was debit.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
I understand...on a value basis. That's what I'm trying to nail down.
I think this is relevant to the digital payments technology in the study of this committee because some of the technologies will allow us to now use, very seamlessly, our smartphones to do things that in the past we would have done by taking out a couple of dollars and putting them on the counter.
Are you saying 90% of the volume of transactions, the money value, is cashless, or are you saying 90% of all the transactions that occur?
4:45 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Payments Association
My reference was to value. But I'd be happy actually, if the committee would like, to write a short note that gives you the transaction volume value statistic.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
If you can submit that to the clerk, we'll ensure all the members get it. Thank you.
Mr. Gaetz, I wanted to follow up with you on your opening statement. You stated, “Payment methods are increasingly complex and they can create [potential] risk exposures for participants and users. Today we see...new non-traditional and unregulated players in the payments space...[which] need to be carefully considered.”
Who would you describe as these types of suppliers? Who are you referring to?
4:45 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Payments Association
It was a general comment. Traditionally, financial institutions have been at the core of the payment system and the payment method. Today, there are new players. We have one interesting new player at the table here, but you could actually put the PayPals in that category as well. You certainly would put a bitcoin in that category.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Do we need to do something from a regulatory and/or legislative point of view to deal with the PayPals and the Flows?
4:45 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Payments Association
My earlier point was that the frameworks and the rules and standards are largely in place. The question is, can we monitor and can we understand really the new products that are coming up? Until we understand how creative people can be, it's hard to say you need to do more.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
In the last session we talked about the code applying to mobile payments, the voluntary code, and we also talked about the payments advisory committee also looking at standardization practices. In your view, with those two groups, is that sufficient at this point in terms of covering these players?
4:45 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Payments Association
I would agree with that at this point.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Okay. I wanted to move onto the protection of consumer data and privacy.
Mr. Maduri, in response to Mr. Thibeault, and he said it very well, because I have actually been one of those MPs who has lost his BlackBerry phone, and they send the kill pill.... It's stored in the cloud, so it's much safer in that aspect, that it's not actually on a device, especially if you have someone who misplaces that device. But obviously you have concerns with respect to information that's stored in the cloud.
I've stored a lot of my data in the Dropbox cloud service, but the House of Commons IT have said that if something is very personal or private, or if there's a communication from a constituent to myself or to another department that's very personal or private, not to keep that data in the cloud technology. I think Dropbox would strenuously object to that and pronounce that they're secure.
This is a question to you, and to anyone on the panel. Do you have any remarks with respect to security concerns about storing this data in cloud technology?
4:50 p.m.
Senior Director, Product Management, Mobile Payments, BlackBerry
From what we've seen, from a security and privacy perspective, we haven't seen any concern to date. Again, our security experts have walked through not all the cloud-based solutions but the ones we have been involved in and we feel fairly sure that there's not a security issue.
In terms of privacy, it's ultimately up to the owner. If it's a bank-issued wallet, whether they use that data for whatever purpose.... But we're not using it, we don't have access to it, and it is secure in terms of the systems we've seen and evaluated.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
4:50 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Flow Inc.
I have a few comments with respect to the privacy end of things. I lump personal data protection as part of what we are going to refer to today as privacy.
I think there's a lot of exciting—and SecureKey, I believe, alluded to this in its testimony last week with regard to enabling users to leverage their own personal data, to operate within a trust framework so that they specify how their data can be used, in what way, and who can use it for what purposes. Giving users greater control over that is something that our company is really excited to be working on, and enabling people to have more of a say in how that operates. So it's not just about the end-user licence and not just about agreeing, but about having more autonomy about how that personal data is used.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Sorry, my time is very limited and I want to get to Caroline.
Caroline, can you comment on that?
4:50 p.m.
Head, External Affairs, Enterprise Strategy, Interac Association
Just very briefly, our products access people's money in their bank accounts. Security is paramount to us so that people feel confident they can use these products and solutions. So our governance framework and our policies that I alluded to earlier, our certification, all of it, any solution, would have to meet the highest standard.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
4:50 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Affairs, Canadian Wireless Telecommunications Association
One thing that's important to remember when you hear about the options that might be based on location-based technology and things like that is that digital payments and use of personal information to offer you services are mutually exclusive. It's not that because you use MasterCard on your phone, you're also giving up your privacy. It means there are options. Consumers will be able to choose from a privacy standpoint what they want to do to access more services like Flow, or what else.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Can you expand on that, just briefly, for 30 seconds, in terms of what information they will voluntarily give up?
4:50 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Affairs, Canadian Wireless Telecommunications Association
Just replicating the card isn't going to be enough to get it going. There have to be things like loyalty programs—they know when you've entered the store, so they can send you offers. But these, again, will be mutually exclusive. It will be up to the consumer to opt into these things. We have a privacy framework, and that should be able to handle when people agree to give up their data, or what their data is going to be used for and how it's going to be used and aggregated.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Just very briefly, with respect to privacy and security, does the code of conduct or any of the regulatory framework need to be upgraded to deal with these concerns?
4:50 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Affairs, Canadian Wireless Telecommunications Association
I don't believe so.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Everybody is nodding in agreement, then?
Okay, thank you.
We'll now go to Mr. Andrews for your five-minute round.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL
Just to follow up on that conversation you were having with the chair about privacy and what information you give up, because it was also....
Caroline, you can jump in here as well.
When you say that the devil is in the defaults, and what those defaults are, I know Ms. Cavoukian and the privacy commission in Ontario have spoken a lot about the defaults and how a consumer will be able to regulate those defaults on their privacy.
How do you see that?
4:50 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Affairs, Canadian Wireless Telecommunications Association
I don't know that it's an issue specific to digital payments. I think it's covered under the broad privacy framework in the privacy laws that we have, and have already. If it's going to be approached that way, the same as if you are using a website and you're clicking on things, and what you're giving up.... My point is that the privacy laws that cover all of that activity can apply to digital payments. There's no requirement for anything specific or targeted.