Finance Committee on Oct. 29th, 2014

[Timothy Egan]

Yes. It puts money in the hands of the residential consumers, it frees up capital for commercial operations to increase employment, and it attracts investment when industry is looking at where to place its next plant. We're going to place our next plant where input costs are lower. One of the biggest input costs is energy.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren.

Ms. Liu, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thanks to the committee for allowing me to sit today. As you know, I'm not a normal member of this committee.

I'd like to direct my comments to the Canadian Intern Association, and particularly to Ms. Seaborn.

Thank you for your outspoken advocacy in favour of unpaid interns. It's a voice that's sorely needed. We estimate that today there are up to 300,000 unpaid interns across Canada, which is a very large number.

I'd like to concentrate on your recommendation concerning extending employment standards, such as occupational health and safety standards in the Canada Labour Code, to interns and students.

As you're aware, I tabled Bill C-620, the intern protection act, earlier this year to this effect. Private member's Bill C-620 was largely inspired by the case of Andy Ferguson, whom you mentioned, an intern who was completing his practicum at a radio station and was asked to work unreasonable hours and fell asleep at the wheel.

Could you elaborate on this case and tell us more precisely how his status as a student and as an intern impacted his rights in the workplace?

[Claire Seaborn]

Absolutely.

Andy Ferguson died in November of 2011. As you said, he fell asleep at the wheel. He was working two positions at the same time. He was working, paid, for a radio station for some hours, and then for other hours he was working, unpaid, as part of a school program. The combination of both of these hours was well beyond any minimum requirements. But because one came from federal jurisdiction, and the other job, the school-regulated internship, was provincial jurisdiction, there was no regulation in terms of health and safety and the hours of work that he performed. He was extremely tired—he had had a long shift—fell asleep, and, unfortunately, got into an accident.

The Alberta government has responded. They've done a comprehensive review of student internships as well as unpaid internships in general. Hopefully we'll see some results come from that.

Aaron Murray is very similar story in Ontario. He was doing an unpaid internship as part of a school program. He worked an overnight shift and was killed the next day.

The other two interns I mentioned quickly were Wayne Affleck, who was an apprentice electrician killed during a co-op, or an apprenticeship position, and Adam Keunen who was actually only in grade 12 when he was killed at a recycling facility during a co-op.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

These cases illustrate the grey area these interns fall under. As you mentioned, provinces are taking leadership roles in terms of extending workplace health and safety standards to these interns.

Another case that's been in the media recently is that of Jainna Patel, who was an unpaid intern for Bell. Could you talk about her case, and could you talk about her asking to be remunerated, or paid for her work?

[Claire Seaborn]

Next week will be the beginning of Jainna's hearing before our Canada labour program adjudicator, who will determine whether Jainna was an employee and entitled to wages or whether, under the Canada Labour Code, she doesn't have to be paid. Hopefully we'll receive some clarity on that.

Clearly, our position is that she was an employee and was entitled to all the same protections and wages as other employees were. That's really what the case is with Jainna. We're waiting for that decision, which should come out in the spring or summer.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

If Bill C-620 had been in place before these events, before Andy Ferguson's internship as well as before Jainna Patel's internship, would these interns have been protected under what would be contained in Bill C-620?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have one minute.

[Claire Seaborn]

If the Canada Labour Code were amended to provide some clarity and explain that interns are employees unless some sort of exemption applies, for example they're in a student program, then that would really provide a lot of clarity. In that case, Jainna probably wouldn't be considered an unpaid intern. She'd be an employee and entitled to wages.

Andy Ferguson would have had more recourse, and there would have been more regulations to cover his hours of work. I can't say whether it would have prevented his death. But, absolutely, those regulations are important.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Finally, the government recently announced that it would augment its blacklist of Canadian employers and potentially put businesses found to have violated provincial labour laws on a federal blacklist. Would that affect the issue of interns?

[Claire Seaborn]

If the Conservative government were adding to its blacklist of employers, absolutely, they should include those breaking provincial workplace laws with unpaid interns.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you very much.

We'll go now to Mr. Adler, please, for five minutes.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank you all for being here today. It's really a very interesting discussion.

I want to focus my questions, however, on Mr. Gill. How important is it for our government to balance the budget?

[Patrick Gill]

It's of critical importance to our members. Our members overwhelmingly agree that deficits harm our economic attractiveness and global competitiveness.

We applaud the government for the work it's done to reduce the federal deficit. After several years of admirable and disciplined restraint, the government is on track to balancing its budget.

We just would ask that you stay the course, and ensure that when you do return to a surplus, you redirect revenues towards projects that encourage economic growth in urban centres.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I was really interested in the comment you made—it's in your brief and also in your presentation—that business must lead to create jobs and growth. It's not government that creates jobs and growth. We can introduce policies that will be conducive and help businesses to create jobs and prosperity, but we, ourselves, don't create jobs.

Let me just give you few rapid-fire questions, and then perhaps you could respond to them for me.

You represent 12,000 members and 250,000 business professionals. So you're a pretty substantial organization. You're no fly-by-night group, are you?

[Patrick Gill]

We were founded in 1845.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

That's right, so you have a long history. You speak for the majority of the business sector in the greater Toronto area, so you have a pretty good read on what business people are thinking and saying and what would help them with their businesses.

Things like tax relief, putting a freeze on EI premiums, reducing EI premiums, lowering the corporate tax to 15% federally at any rate—how important are all of those initiatives to your members?

[Patrick Gill]

They're important. Tax competitiveness is quite good as it stands. First and foremost, our members are telling us that governments of all levels should be investing in transportation infrastructure first, to drive productivity. Then a second tool of driving productivity is further supporting trade, reducing trade barriers, and helping businesses throughout the country expand their customer base abroad.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

So the 43 free trade agreements we have introduced since 2006 have been helpful to your members, have they not?

[Patrick Gill]

Absolutely. The board is delighted by the new CETA, which will tear down barriers and encourage regulatory coordination. On regulatory coordination, we encourage you to help bring those barriers down interprovincially as well.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I was going to get to that, actually, because, as you know, we're revisiting now the Agreement on Internal Trade, which we last negotiated in 1994. We're aggressively trying to break down those barriers so Canada will be not only one country but one single market also. Right now there are a lot of barriers between provinces, and sometimes it's more difficult to do business from one province to another than it is from Canada to another country, so I'm glad you agree on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have about one minute.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Making the gas tax permanent and tying it to the cost of living to cope with that was another good policy we had, was it not?

[Patrick Gill]

Yes, it was a recommendation that the board and our other national chamber colleagues put forward. We're very pleased with that, and now that substantial money has been put on the table.

Municipalities have very limited tools to raise revenue, so we have to look towards the other levels of government to be strategic with their investments, and as you're making investments in transportation—

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

We've certainly done that—