Finance Committee on Feb. 22nd, 2022

[Isabelle Jacques]

Yes.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

But the moment that the Emergencies Act is revoked, then that would be completed, right? You'd have to stop, right?

[Isabelle Jacques]

Yes. We have to stop it unless we have other measures in place at that time, yes.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Then, the second part of this paragraph (c) is to require financial service providers to determine whether they have possession and control of property that belongs to persons in the blockade. That relates to the freezing of bank accounts, if I'm not mistaken.

You said that you've stopped giving information to banks to freeze bank accounts and are in the process of unfreezing them. So that part of the Emergencies Act is no longer required. Am I correct?

[Isabelle Jacques]

My understanding is that the RCMP, which is responsible for providing that information, has shared information with the financial sector, in that they are unfreezing accounts at the moment.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Yes.

[Isabelle Jacques]

That information was shared by the RCMP yesterday, and I guess they will share information on an ongoing basis. I'm not aware of any new information with respected to prohibited activities that may be ongoing.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you.

Based on your information, with the assemblies resolving, there is no longer any utilization of that provision, and when we look at the processing by FINTRAC, that should really be done by a separate regulation, following a study—not just as an ad hoc measure of an Emergencies Act that after a crisis has extended.

Would those be fair comments or would you disagree?

[Isabelle Jacques]

On the first part, to my knowledge, to the extent that there are no prohibited activities ongoing, the unfreezing will continue. If there is new information provided by the RCMP—to which I'm not privy—the order is still in effect, so I have no knowledge that freezing is occurring currently, only that accounts are being unfrozen, and if you please—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you very much.

Just on that, in accordance with your understanding of the proclamation, if in fact at a pipeline there was a gathering or an assembly that was unlawful and sought to interfere with critical infrastructure, namely a pipeline, the RCMP could submit information to financial institutions and have those bank accounts frozen right now or at any time that this Emergencies Act is in place. Am I correct?

[Isabelle Jacques]

I am not sure that situation would apply.

I don't know if my colleague Sam, from Justice, could help, as I was not privy to the creation of the section on critical infrastructure.

[Samantha Maislin Dickson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Public Safety, Defence and Immigration Portfolio, Department of Justice]

Thank you very much.

It's not that all assemblies are considered unlawful. It is the criteria that are actually set out in the emergency measures regulations. If you give me a moment to pull those up, the criteria set out there are:

the serious disruption of the movement of persons or goods or the serious interference with trade;

the interference with the functioning of critical infrastructure; or

the support of the threat or use of acts of serious violence against persons or property.

It would be a factual assessment as to whether any assembly that would occur—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you very much for that. My time is short.

Let's say, for example, an environmental activist said they should blow up pipelines. A group has assembled and they acted in a way that was unlawful or in a way to try to attempt to break up...like what happened at the coastal pipeline. Potentially, if there were a group involved, their accounts could be frozen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Give a very short answer, please.

[Samantha Maislin Dickson]

I would have to defer to the RCMP about the linkages and assessment on that point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Lawrence.

We are now moving to the Liberals for five minutes, to Parliamentary Secretary Koutrakis.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's really nice to be here once again at the finance committee.

Thank you to the witnesses for their testimony. You've given us a lot to think about and very clear answers. It's very much appreciated.

We've talked a lot about the freezing of bank accounts. It may be you, Ms. Jacques, or it might be the RCMP, who's able to provide this information. I'm curious to know what safeguards are in place to ensure that Canadians not involved in the blockades are not mistakenly targeted by the freezing of bank accounts. Are you aware of any safeguards that are in place?

[Isabelle Jacques]

Well, certainly the safeguard that we put in the legislation is this ongoing obligation on financial institutions to review the information they have in their possession. If somebody was, unfortunately, captured, which would seem unlikely but is possible, the person can contact the financial institution and review the information it has. It could be a question of mistaken identity. The bank in question can unfreeze the account based on the information provided. If they need additional information, they could approach the RCMP as well.

In the way it's been set up, it seems unlikely, in view of the fact that you need to use money and you need proof that it's towards an activity that is prohibited under section 2. I think it gives a very good basis to ensure that consumers are protected.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you for that.

I'm also very interested in determining the sources of funding to make sure that we follow the money and protect our financial institutions and our democracy. We know that leaked data suggests that nearly 41% of donations made to the convoy through GiveSendGo came from the United States. Do we have a sense of who these donors are? I'm interested to know what types of organizations or individuals from the U.S. are supporting the convoy.

In your opinion, what threats do such large foreign donations pose to our democratic institutions and our national sovereignty?

[Isabelle Jacques]

Well, I do not have any information or details as to the.... I read, of course, the newspaper and understand that there was a certain amount of money coming from other countries. I do not have those numbers.

Certainly, to the extent that money entered the Canadian financial sector's systems, it would be captured under the order, if it were used and provided after the order came into force, and that money could be seized.

As for your broader question, in view of the fact that I don't have the information, I'm not able to assess to what extent it has an impact on democracy.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

I was wondering about the following, Ms. Jacques. In response to my colleague Mr. Chambers' question earlier on GoFundMe and the Emergencies Act going into effect on February 15, you said that all of the money had been returned before that act was declared. I know that GoFundMe was suspended as a fundraiser before the Emergencies Act was declared. I'm not sure if the funds were automatically sent back before that. I just was wondering if you can clarify that point for us.

[Isabelle Jacques]

Yes, I should clarify it. [Technical Difficulty—Editor] in the newspaper. I know that what was reported was that GoFundMe decided to stop taking additional funds and that it returned the money in their fund to the original senders. All of this activity occurred prior to the order being in effect.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Okay.

Lastly, if I have time, Mr. Chair, my colleague MP Dzerowicz has said that in order to make some of these changes permanent, it would have to be legislated, and you agreed to that effect. I'm just wondering if making these powers permanent would have any impact on the ability of Canadians to legally donate money through crowdfunding platforms in the future.

[Isabelle Jacques]

No, not at all.

The permanent measures that we intend to take are with respect to FINTRAC, and more particularly with respect to the platforms and the payment service providers, not the part where we put in effect measures to seize and suspend accounts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

That is the time. Thank you, Ms. Koutrakis.