Finance Committee on April 25th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Members, is there any discussion on that?

MP Dzerowicz and then MP Morantz.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I think Marty was before me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Okay.

MP Morantz and then MP Dzerowicz.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to speak in favour of this motion; it's a very important motion. There's a lot of uncertainty right now as to what's going on at the CRA. I noted in question period—I think it was yesterday or the day before—that several questions were asked of the revenue minister about filing deadlines at the CRA, which she did not respond to. Ultimately, Minister Gould, to her credit, did say something about electronic filing's still going on, but of course, we're not clear as to whether Canadians can get through to the CRA, whether they'll be getting their refunds on time, when they'll be getting their refunds, and whether they'll be able to get through to the CRA to get their questions answered in order to be able to file their taxes.

I would actually like to see the revenue minister come to the committee, and I am hoping to get all members on side with this. I don't know if we need a separate motion for it or not—at least a request to the revenue minister to come to committee to sort this out.

We don't have the information we need at this point to know whether or not the services at the CRA are happening as they should at a critical time of the year, given the strike. The purpose of this motion is to extend the filing deadline for 21 days beyond the end of the strike in order to make sure that Canadians are able to get the information and services they need in order to comply with their obligations under the Income Tax Act.

With that said, I think this is an important motion that all members of this committee should support.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Morantz.

We're going to go to MP Dzerowicz.

The Minister of National Revenue was before our committee, MP Morantz, just—

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Mr. Chair, that was before the strike.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Okay.

Thank you, MP Morantz.

MP Dzerowicz.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank my colleague for putting forward this motion. I think it was put with good intent. When we see a strike go on, we think, “Oh my gosh, there's a strike. Maybe it's going to impact people who are filing taxes.”

Mr. Chambers and colleagues, I don't believe that because there is a strike we should be moving forward with delaying the tax filing deadline—for a number of reasons.

I think everybody knows that we have the IT systems. It's all set up to send out benefits and tax credits as of July 1. It's automatically set up. If there's any delay with the filing of the taxes, it's going to impact those IT systems. You have to recalibrate it. That apparently takes weeks to do. That's actually going to impact the benefits and credits of thousands of Canadians. That's one thing.

Two, in my riding, we help so many people and direct them to many different places on how to be helped to get their filings done. None of that is being impacted by the strike. They're all going to local community centres. They're going to places that offer these free tax filing services. None of that is being impacted by the strike.

I will also say—I think Mr. Morantz asked this earlier—what it actually says on the CRA website:

The tax filing deadline has not changed. Canadians should take steps to ensure that their return is filed by May 1, 2023.... The CRA will continue to accept all returns during this labour disruption. Those that are filed digitally will largely be processed automatically by the system without delay.

We want to make sure that people's access to these benefits and tax credits will not be delayed, particularly when everybody is feeling the pressures of the high cost of living.

My understanding, as well, is that CRA is not the only tax authority. There is also going to be, if there's a delay of accepting tax filings, implications for Revenu Québec. We understand that they don't have a desire to move their filing deadline.

The last thing I would maybe say is that there's only been once in history that we've actually delayed it, and that was during the pandemic. That was for legitimate reasons, because we didn't know what was happening in the pandemic.

Right now, you have CRA continuing to encourage people to file their taxes. From my perspective, I don't think there's anything that would hinder Canadians from being able to continue to file their taxes. We want to do everything we can to make sure that benefits and credits that are due to thousands of Canadians are not put at risk because of this.

Although, Mr. Chambers, I think you've put this forward with good intentions, I don't think that in the end it's going to have the desired impact you would like it to have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Dzerowicz.

I believe I have MP Blaikie and then MP Chambers.

Were there any other hands? No?

Okay, go ahead, MP Blaikie.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Chair, thank you very much.

I'm happy to speak in favour of the motion. I take Ms. Dzerowicz' point about the timeliness of paying out certain benefits. It's important to encourage Canadians to file on time, but also to provide some flexibility for folks who have questions they can't get answers to right now, or, in certain cases, might need permission.

I just heard a story about someone who has been locked out of their CRA filing account. They need to call the CRA in order to get access to their account. They can't do that while no one is picking up the phone. That's somebody who shouldn't be penalized, in my view, for having a late return because they're not able to do the things they need to do to file their return.

Where Canadians can file their return, I don't think there's anything contradictory about the government's saying, on the one hand, that, if you're able to file, do file on time. We encourage filing on time. There are benefits to filing on time, but in the event that you can't file on time, you're not going to be penalized.

I think it's also important to note that, while I take all of the resolutions of the committee very seriously, this isn't a binding resolution. It's not something the government is going to have to implement. I would encourage them to implement it. I would encourage them to be thoughtful about it and to think about ways they may already start preparing to try to accommodate late filing for payments of certain benefits on July 1.

This is something the department has some experience with. I wouldn't say that it went well, but during the pandemic, there were delayed filing dates. Hopefully there have been some lessons learned by the department about how to do this and how to mitigate some of the negative impacts, but the fact of the matter is, for Canadians who aren't able to file on time because they need access to someone on the CRA phone line, their benefit payments on July 1 are going to be delayed already.

Certainly, again, encourage those who can file on time to file on time, but for those who can't, I think there should be an understanding that they won't be penalized for circumstances beyond their control.

Finally, I would say that the best way to mitigate all of this is for the government to reach a fair deal at the table as quickly as possible. PSAC has been without a new contract now for about two years. None of the bargaining issues are new. They waited a bloody long time for the government to put an offer on the table—well past the expiration of their contract.

Let's not pretend that somehow we're in this bind for any reason other than the government's not presenting a reasonable offer in anywhere near a reasonable timeline. The best way to get around all of this is to have an expeditious end to negotiations by getting a deal.

When we've had a year of completely unprecedented inflation, to put numbers on the table that don't in any way reflect the period of inflation that we have suffered, when we know that public sector negotiations set the bar for wage negotiations across the entire economy, the PSAC isn't just out for themselves. They're out for workers across the country in private industries as well who are interested in making wage gains that recognize that they've been kicked in the teeth over the last year with the cost of groceries, rent and everything else.

If the public service settles and the government insists on giving them a wage deal that doesn't recognize inflation, they won't just be punishing the PSAC. They'll be punishing workers across the entire economy who are going to go to employers to ask for wage increases that recognize inflation and be told that not even federal civil servants got wage increases that recognize inflation, so why should you get it?

This is an important negotiation for the entire country, for workers across many different industries who are rightly looking to ensure that their paycheques keep up with increased costs. It's why this government, which says it cares about workers, should be concerned not just for civil service workers. It should be concerned to have an exemplary deal that shows employers in the public and private sectors how to fairly accommodate its workers who have been suffering greatly as a result of inflation. That's the best way to get this done, but, in the meantime, if certain Canadians who can't reach anybody at the CRA right now want to take a few extra days to file their taxes, I think that's the least we can do.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Blaikie.

I have three people still up. MP Chambers was next, but he's asked to go last. I have MP Ste-Marie, MP Dzerowicz and then MP Chambers. Hopefully we'll still have some time to get to our officials who are here waiting eagerly for our questions.

Go ahead, MP Ste-Marie, please.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

I still have a lot of questions to ask the officials. I hope we will have the time to come back to them.

Just before the meeting, I was on the picket line in Joliette to let the women and men on the line know that we agree with them, that they are entitled to a negotiated agreement, and that we reiterate the demand that the government bargain. I even think that at this stage, after a weekend with no progress, we support their demand that the Prime Minister intervene personally. We must not, contrary to what we have seen on all the other issues in recent years, fold our arms and allow the situation to deteriorate. That leads to terrible situations.

Obviously, as I said at the previous meeting, I completely support the motion presented by Mr. Chambers. I think it is a good motion.

I understood the arguments made by Ms. Dzerowicz, and I thank her for them. I also concur in the arguments made by Mr. Blaikie. So let people who are able to file their returns by the current deadlines do so. However, as my colleagues said, accounting firms that have clarifications to request from Canada Revenue concerning certain cases are unable to get answers at present. That is creating a problem. As well, the present situation is in addition to the labour shortage in the bookkeeping and accounting industry, which means it is very difficult for them to file all the returns in the period allowed.

I would remind you that in Quebec, we were without electricity for several days in numerous regions because of the freezing rain. A lot of accounting firms were hit by this situation. The Quebec government has already given them an extension for filing returns, in view of the situation. In my opinion, a G7 country is certainly capable of granting an extension, in view of the exceptional circumstances.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Ste-Marie.

I have MP Dzerowicz and MP Chambers.

MP Chatel, you want to speak to this also.

Okay, we'll have MP Dzerowicz, MP Chatel and then MP Chambers, please.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much.

Because Monsieur Ste-Marie as well as Mr. Blaikie had mentioned this, I want to respond as well because it is fair to do so. Of course we want a fair deal and of course we want a good deal. We all want an end to it.

I do want to just remind everyone there were 570 items on the table and we're now down to a handful, so a lot of tremendous work has been done by both sides to try to reach a fair and good settlement.

I just want to recognize the extraordinary work that has been done and how far we've actually come on that. Just because we're having tough negotiations now doesn't mean that we don't continue to support strong labour rights or that we don't support our public service unions. We absolutely do.

The only other point I want to add to the current debate at hand is that according to the CRA website, approximately 95% of the 17 million people who have filed their taxes have already done so using self-serve digital options. I appreciate it—because this is the case in my own riding—that not everybody has access to a computer, although if they go to our non-profit organizations they would be able to be helped. There are step-by-step instructions called “Learn About Your Taxes” and you can engage with Charlie the chatbot who can answer your questions online.

I encourage anyone who is listening who might want to call CRA with some additional questions in wanting to file their taxes that there might be some online resources available to them.

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Dzerowicz.

We'll go to MP Chatel and then MP Chambers.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Having been a public servant myself for a number of years, I can tell you that we understand the situation very well. We all hope there will be a satisfactory resolution, an agreement that is fair for everyone, for both the employees and the government, but also for all Canadians.

Regarding the motion, I know it comes out of good intentions. However, I have to point out that in Quebec, in most cases, federal and provincial tax returns are submitted together. A large number of people in Quebec use software that combines the two. Unfortunately, if we adopt this motion, we might be misleading some people in Quebec who might decide to fill out their tax return and send it. That would result in penalties in Quebec, because Quebec is not required to follow these instructions, obviously.

So it would have consequences for people in Quebec that I don't want to be associated with. That is why I do not support the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Chatel.

We'll go over to MP Chambers, I think, to wrap this up.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you.

I appreciate the comments by my colleague. I won't take any more time other than to say that no Canadian should be penalized for not being able to get the information they require. The business tax inquiry line is down—only certain calls are getting through—and the online chat function with a human is not available. Charlie the chatbot may be great, but he's overloaded.

Perhaps the government has a better idea and has more line of sight into what's possible and not possible. I won't amend the motion, but I'll leave another consideration for the government to think about. No Canadian should be assessed a penalty for filing late if they owe afterwards, as a compromise—although I'm not willing to compromise my motion. I will keep it as is. I think we should go to a vote.

It makes sense for Canadians, who expect some services, that they are not going to be penalized. This was an idea to extend the filing deadline, to give Canadians some comfort, while they are stressed out trying to find out some answers or get into their CRA My Account.

If the government wants to take a different approach, that's fine, but I'd like the committee to express its will.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Chambers.

Is there discussion on this?

MP Chatel.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Mr. Chair, I just want to point out that measures are available.

There's taxpayer relief for taxpayers in conditions where they can't file for X, Y and Z.... The CRA already has a process to waive penalties and interest due to circumstances that are out of the control of taxpayers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Chatel.

MP Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I have just a brief intervention. I did a little bit of research with respect to chatbot Charlie. First, it says it's a pilot project. Secondly, it says, “Please don't include any personal information.” It's basically a frequently asked questions device. That is not a substitute for a human being, who should be answering Canadians' questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Lawrence.

Is there any further discussion?

MP Beech.

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

I'm ready to vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Okay. That's good.

Clerk, I think the members are ready.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

The motion carries.