Evidence of meeting #27 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was boat.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gary Dixon  Owner and President, Dixon's Marine Group 2000 Inc.
George Rennehan  President, Eastern Fishermen's Federation
Lisa Anderson  Executive Director, Nova Scotia Fisheries Sector Council
Melanie Sonnenberg  Coordinator, Eastern Fishermen's Federation
Harland Martell  President of Wedgeport Boats and past Chairman of the Nova Scotia Boatbuilders Association, As an Individual

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

I'd like to call the meeting to order.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee continues with the study on the issue of new rules for boat stability, and in particular the matter of the fishery boat length requirements.

Again, welcome, everybody, to the forum, and welcome to our presenters.

Gary, I hope you don't mind.... I called Gary Dixon yesterday. He picked up the phone and said, “I can't talk.” I said, “Gary, you have a terrible cold.” I said, “Gary, can you come tomorrow?” And Gary said, “I'm in my deer stand.”

11:15 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

We appreciate your taking the time out in the middle of deer season to attend the meeting.

I'd like to welcome our presenters. This is an important issue. We certainly have a number of representatives here from the boat building industry and from the fishing industry.

As everyone in the room, I'm sure, is aware, Transport Canada brought in new regulations in 2004. They haven't been implemented yet, but they're going to deal with stability tests and the safety of our fishing boats.

It could be expensive to go through a stability test, $7,000 to $10,000 for individual fishermen. So we're trying to hear from, first of all, the fishermen, and certainly the boat building industry, on how we can implement this, how we can support safety, and at the same time make it so that fishermen can still afford to fish and not have to spend their entire earnings on boat stability tests, when they already have a Canadian steamship inspection certificate.

We do have some individuals in the room who wanted to know how to submit a written report to committee. You can submit a written report to the clerk of the committee at the House of Commons. And she's writing furiously here now. Actually, she's given me her e-mail address, which is FOPO@parl.gc.ca. If e-mail doesn't work, then snail mail will. We're still happy to hear any further submissions from the audience.

We'll move on to our first witness. Who's first? Do we have a pecking order?

Dixon's Marine Group.

11:15 a.m.

Gary Dixon Owner and President, Dixon's Marine Group 2000 Inc.

I thought I was just coming to a meeting to listen to what was going to take place.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

I'd just ask people to speak slowly, if they could. We do have simultaneous translation. We would like to keep submissions to ten minutes or under, if we could, please.

11:15 a.m.

Owner and President, Dixon's Marine Group 2000 Inc.

Gary Dixon

When it comes to the stability thing, George has a proposal all done. I'd suggest we let him go through his proposal first.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Absolutely. What a good idea.

Mr. Rennehan.

11:15 a.m.

George Rennehan President, Eastern Fishermen's Federation

No, George doesn't have a proposal. Melanie and Lisa are going to deliver the proposal.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Boys, I've seen the buck passed before.

11:15 a.m.

A voice

It is deer season.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

It is deer season, right.

11:15 a.m.

President, Eastern Fishermen's Federation

George Rennehan

George will do part of it.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Go ahead, Melanie or Lisa.

Lisa Anderson.

11:15 a.m.

Lisa Anderson Executive Director, Nova Scotia Fisheries Sector Council

I guess I'm first, then.

Just to give you a little snapshot--I'm sure that some of you are probably quite familiar with the fishing industry--but as an overview of the maritime region, the maritime region is made up of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island. The fishing industry is the major economic driver in these coastal communities, offering many direct and indirect jobs.

Top species landed in the region are groundfish, herring, mackerel, lobster, scallop, and snow crab. Landed values and quantity for the maritime provinces is based on 2003 statistics from Fisheries and Oceans Canada. The value of the Canadian fishery was $2.23 billion. Of this total, $1.14 billion represents the maritime region, which is 52% of the Canadian value and 62% of Atlantic Canada. Within these same statistics, the quantity landed in Canada was 1.12 billion tonnes. In the maritime region, 546 million tonnes were landed, which represents 48% of the Canadian total and 60% of Atlantic Canada.

In looking at the number of vessels, based on statistics made available by Transport Canada in January 2006, there were just over 20,000 fishing vessels in Canada; 64% of these fishing vessels are located in the maritime region. Of the total fishing vessels in Canada, 79% are under 15 gross tonnes. Based on 2002 statistics from Fisheries and Oceans Canada, there was a total of 8,831 vessels under 45 feet within the maritime region.

In looking at the number of fishermen, based on 2002 stats from Fisheries and Oceans Canada, the total number of fishermen employed within Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island is around 26,000 people. This represents 61% of Atlantic Canada. The number only represents direct employment within the fishery and doesn't account for the spinoff jobs that have been created within coastal communities due to the fishery.

In looking at some of the issues of concern from the maritime regions on the stability issue, within the Canada Shipping Act, 2001, fishing vessel safety regulations, proposed stability regulations are causing much concern within the maritime region. The maritime fishing industry--through outreach consultation sessions, regional and national CMAC, which is the Canadian Marine Advisory Council--has voiced a strong message that the proposed regulations on stability are not acceptable and will cause financial hardship to most fishermen.

The Nova Scotia Fisheries Sector Council, on behalf of the fishing industry, organized a fishing vessel safety working group for the Maritimes. There was strong representation and participation from the maritime regions at this session along with key personnel from Transport Canada, Marine Safety, Atlantic Region.

Some of the comments that we've heard from industry to date from some of these consultation sessions and CMAC meetings are as follows.

New stability requirements would definitely put some operations out of business, and they shouldn't apply to the inshore fishery.

The development of regulations and standards should be applied to the proportion of risks related to an operation, and if there were no real risk, then the requirements should not be added. For the inshore fishery, the new requirements would kill some of the fishery. What might be good for one form of the fishery may not be good for another.

A few accidents should not constitute every vessel being regulated for a full stability test. Fishing vessels that have had stability booklets still capsized.

Overloading has been pertinent. Regulations should be applied based on risk.

Fishermen in one particular area noted that there weren't any stability issues in their area of operations. Government was again accused of making regulations that could not be compiled by the industry. Common sense dictates stability. Overall costs related to stability testing would definitely impact other operational costs such as insurance, salaries, maintenance, etc.

It is education that is needed, not regulations.

Fishermen will be required to increase effort with all these additional costs, and this will actually put them at more risk than before. For one fisherman to outfit his vessel under the proposed regulatory changes would cost him an estimated $68,000.

It was voiced strongly and collectively by industry that if you want safety, you require industry buy-in. Industry has been proactive in participating in the consultation process in cooperation with Transport Canada. We feel that the feedback heard from industry should be well noted and incorporated into the drafting of proposed regulations and related to small fishing vessels.

November 9th, 2006 / 11:20 a.m.

Melanie Sonnenberg Coordinator, Eastern Fishermen's Federation

Thank you, Lisa.

To follow along, we've had a number of letters that came along after the meeting Lisa spoke about where we got the group together, where we got the industry together. Fishermen's associations across the maritime region are extremely concerned about the proposed stability regulations and the financial implications for their fishermen.

A number of associations have put forward letters to support the need for awareness and education on the issues, not more regulation. And sometimes, for fishing industries to take the time to write a letter in this day and age is in itself quite a thing. We'll submit them to the committee; we have a package here with a number of those letters so you can get a feel for what has been said.

The industry is safety minded, and I think that's one of the things we want to continue to remind everybody of. Sometimes at Transport Canada we've had the sense that we're being branded as unsafe people. I want to clearly state that the industry is very interested in safety. But we need to do it in a way that's beneficial for everybody. The incidents within the region have been minimal for the inshore fleet, and I think we have to continue to remember that.

The Nova Scotia Boatbuilders Association also recognizes industry's concern in relation to this issue and has also offered a letter in recognition of the issues faced by the industry. And I'm sure Harland will speak to that a little later on.

The vessel that Lisa spoke about in her part of the presentation, for $68,000.... There was an economic impact assessment conducted by the Province of New Brunswick on a vessel from the Bay of Fundy. This assessment is in relation to the fishing vessel from Grand Manan, New Brunswick. The costs outlined in this document realized that if this vessel is to comply with the proposed regulations as they—

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Melanie, you may have to slow down just a little bit.

11:20 a.m.

Coordinator, Eastern Fishermen's Federation

Melanie Sonnenberg

Slow down, yes.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

We have two more witnesses, and if all our witnesses are brief, you two can have more time.

11:20 a.m.

Coordinator, Eastern Fishermen's Federation

Melanie Sonnenberg

All right, I'll slow down.

The proposed regulations as we have them today would cost him $68,000. When he took his vessel to the naval architect, which was commissioned by the Province of New Brunswick, he thought it would be in the neighbourhood of $45,000. He was quite shocked to find that it would be more like $68,000. That's staggering. It's not affordable. This example is real, and it's a fine example of the regulations and the impact that will have on our fishing industry. We've listed in the presentation all of the associations that have put forward their letters of concern.

During our meeting, Lisa did an overview of the review of the Transportation Safety Board statistics. In that review, the statistical summary of marine occurrences for 2004 noted that marine accidents reached a 29-year low in 2004. A large portion of the marine accidents involve fishing vessels. This is due in part to the fact that fishing vessels play a large part in the number of vessels within Canada. The other thing that's not quantified by the TSB that's quite important is that we don't have a sense of what that relates to in fishing days. We have only the accidents, so it's hard to quantify exactly how that works out.

After studying the types of shipping accidents on average, the most common type is due to grounding. Striking would be a close second, followed by flooding, and fire and explosion. In looking at shipping accidents by region, the maritime region hosts 23% of shipping accidents, second behind the western region.

It was noted that fishing vessel accidents dominated the accident record in these areas. It was reported by the TSB that, compared to the 1999-2003 average, fishing vessels involved in shipping accidents showed a decrease in 2004 in both the western and maritime regions.

Preliminary marine occurrence statistics for 2005 showed a reduction in marine accidents, from 492 in 2004 to 480 in 2005. In reviewing the current marine investigations started in 2004 and 2005, of the marine reports released, 10 of the 36 were fishing vessels and only one vessel was from the maritime region, which was due to grounding.

The TSB has made recommendations based on its findings to a number of investigations and reports in the 2004-05 year. One of the reports was a highly publicized incident of the Cap Rouge II, which happened in the Fraser River in British Columbia, and the TSB put forward a number of recommendations to Transport Canada.

It recommended that:

The Department of Transport, in collaboration with the fishing community, reduce unsafe practices by means of a code of best practices for small fishing vessels, including loading and stability, and that its adoption be encouraged through effective education and awareness programs.

Really, I don't think anybody in the fishing industry disagrees with that. It's the next step that comes from that.

The TSB also stated in its recommendations that:

The Department of Transport require all new inspected small fishing vessels of closed construction to submit stability data for approval.

It stated as well that:

The Department of Transport require all existing inspected small fishing vessels currently without any approved stability data be subjected to a roll period test and a corresponding freeboard verification not later than their next scheduled quadrennial inspection.

As to the current state of the small fishing vessel regulations, George, Lisa, and I have just come back from Ottawa last night, from the national CMAC meeting. Currently, the regulations are on hold. Transport Canada has commissioned three studies that will address the proposed small fishing vessel regulations, and in particular the stability issue.

The evaluation of risk factors is being considered by one consultant. A national risk assessment on the stability requirements for small commercial fishing vessels less than 24 metres in length overall is being considered, and a benefit-cost analysis and a RIAS for fishing vessel regulations are also being looked at. Results of these reports will be incorporated into the proposed regulations.

Our conclusions and recommendations regarding the subject are as follows.

The maritime region is host to a number of coastal communities through the provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island. The fishing industry is an economic driver in these areas and offers numerous direct and indirect employment opportunities.

Over the last few years, Transport Canada has consulted with the industry on proposed regulatory changes being put forward in the Canada Shipping Act, 2001.

Various forums such as outreach sessions, CMAC, and working group sessions have had strong participation from the fishing communities across the maritime region. Comments and recommendations have been put forward by industry with regard to the proposed fishing vessel safety regulations, and in particular the stability initiative. There has been a strong message from our region that the proposed stability regulations are unjust for fishing vessels of the inshore fleet and that the economic impact would be substantial.

The most recent ship safety bulletin, which...actually, since we wrote this we found out there is a draft of a new ship safety bulletin. But currently, the one that's in effect, which was 04/2006, called “Safety of Small Fishing Vessels: Information to Owners/Masters about Stability Booklets”, is of great concern to fishermen. The timing of the release was extremely discouraging to fishermen. On initial assessment of the bulletin, the financial cost to fishermen to obtain a stability booklet is enormous and unnecessary for most fishing vessels. A number of the risk factors listed in the bulletin are clearly open to interpretation and debate.

Transport Canada is moving toward a risk-based approach when assessing the need for stability analysis. Based on historical performance data from both fishermen and the TSB, fishing vessels in the maritime region do not present a stability risk and should not be subjected to unreasonable stability analysis.

The statistics put forward by TSB do not warrant such a drastic change to the regulations such as the one that Transport Canada and the ship safety bulletin are pushing. The fishing industry identifies safety at sea as a priority, and to effectively educate industry on stability, awareness is needed, not more regulations.

The fishing industry in the maritime regions supports the development and delivery of stability awareness, workshops, and tools. Government needs to invest in such a proposed initiative. This is much more focused and will create buy-in from the fishing industry, and it will satisfy both fishermen and the regulatory bodies, such as Transport Canada and TSB, for an interest in a safe and viable fishery.

Before I close, I want to say there were a number of developments at the national meeting in Ottawa. One of them is directly related to how we've come here today, about the boat length and the tie-in to the stability.

The Departments of Fisheries and Oceans and Transport Canada signed a memorandum of understanding at the meeting, and we've not had a lot of discussion with the departments that have been, to use, the right word, serious at those meetings about how cut-offs from Transport and cut-offs from DFO don't line up. So we really haven't come prepared today to speak to those issues, because in some ways it's a separate day on the boat length issue as opposed to the stability issue. Both of those topics are serious, but right now Transport and DFO are only just coming together to begin that discussion. I wanted to end on that. We're hoping those things will come forward in a way that puts industry at the table with them, to have reasonable discussions about where we go from here.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Melanie, if I could just interject for a second, I appreciate that comment, because it's one of the things we've struggled with as a committee; that is the correlation between boat length and stability and the issue that the restriction of boat length has caused some stability issues in other areas, not necessarily in this area but some in this area and certainly some in the fishery in Newfoundland.

11:30 a.m.

Coordinator, Eastern Fishermen's Federation

Melanie Sonnenberg

Absolutely, and certainly everybody is familiar with the Ryan's Commander incident, and some of those discussions certainly weigh into this.

But even when we talk about that, it's important for the committee to realize that there's been quite a disconnect between the two departments in terms of how those things have meshed.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

I appreciate that, and it's a subject we could spend another day on, without question.

11:30 a.m.

Coordinator, Eastern Fishermen's Federation

Melanie Sonnenberg

Yes, we could.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

However, we're not trying to ignore it, and that's why we've put it on the table.

George, you go right ahead.

11:30 a.m.

President, Eastern Fishermen's Federation

George Rennehan

I have a letter here from one of our members in the Eastern Fishermen's Federation, a well-respected fellow fisherman of ours. It's to his MP, Mr. Greg Thompson. He goes on to say:

Dear Mr. Minister:

Last weekend at our regular meeting of the Eastern Fishermen's Federation...we had your assistant present to hear our concerns regarding the Department of Transport's implementing the new Canadian Shipping Act and the effects it will have on our fishery. Also present was Transport Minister Cannon's assistant. We are trying to be sure that our concerns are getting directly to the people in charge. We had hoped we had achieved that. However, the “wharf telegraph” tells us that our representatives may not get to meet with Minister Cannon at the upcoming meeting of CMAC in Ottawa in November.

We need your help in making sure that our concerns get to the ears of the decision makers.

When I started in this industry over 50 years ago, our concerns were weather and fish availability. Today, added to these are changes and expenses of rules put on us by the DFO. Some years ago, DFO ran short of money—a result of that was downloading responsibilities to us, the fishermen. A virtual “cottage industry” has grown up around the supply of information to DFO that they should be doing themselves. Dockside monitoring companies, people hired to count dead fish, “Hail in, Hail out” expenses carried on the backs of fishermen. “Harbour authorities” and attending expenses are passed on to us with no legal authority to collect said expenses. “Black Boxes”—we each have various electronic devices that tell us where we are when fishing. DFO needs to know also. We pay for the “black box”; we also pay to turn it on and off, plus $80 a month while it is in use. Next year they want us to put on CFV numbers or our names on our lobster buoys. With 300 lobster buoys it is going to take considerable time and some expense to do this, never mind that our buoys are already colour coded. Never mind that the regulation they wish to enforce does not mention our particular fishery. This makes it more convenient for them. It does not do it for us.

Now, along comes Transport Canada. Transport Canada is a much larger department than DFO. Fishery is a small part of Transport and being small sometimes makes it easier to fall through the cracks. On the first going off it was life preservers, flares, life rafts, etc.—things that some fishermen already had—practical things. Next comes MED (Marine Emergency Duties)—two days in a classroom with attendant expenses. One day in a pool to see how a life raft opens and how to get in and out of it. You get a certificate for this—which needs to be updated; medical tests with approved doctors and costs associated; a new radio and a two- or four-day course on how to turn it on and off, etc.

Now comes “Stability Booklets”. I have a vague idea what a stability booklet entails. I know the cost is between $10,000 and $12,000 each. I also know that what I see with my eyes and feel with my feet as the boat goes through the water tells me more what needs to be done than words and graphs in a booklet. We use the word “feel” to describe what our boats are doing while they are under way. We know how they feel when they are “light” (unloaded) and how they feel loaded and every way in between. This is how we fishermen survive. You learn to feel, to be part of your boat and your boat a part of you, and if you don't you don't survive. If you cannot learn that, you do not survive in this business. Most fishermen having a choice will not take a boatload with lobster traps away from the wharf when the wind is blowing—

Two years ago, DFO delayed the opening of the fall lobster fishery due to an unfavourable weather forecast for setting day. I applauded them then, and I applaud them now. That was “common sense” applied. Unfortunately, “common sense” is a coin in short supply when dealing with bureaucracy. Our vessels are divided into different categories, and at first glance, it may seem we would be exempt from some of the proposals. However, up close, it appears in the case of stability booklets, they are aiming at all of us.

I have licences to fish for six species. Due to moratoria, economic affordability, I am down to using two--lobster and scallop. Lobsters, certainly, scallops when economics allow it. Most fishermen are satisfied to take from the resource what they need. I resent it when some bureaucrat with an agenda far different from mine raises the threshold of that need. The only way we can cover increased costs is to kill more fish! Given that stability booklets are recommended for all, at somewhere around $200,000,000 total, I am fearful that there is not that many extra fish in our waters to pay for it.

Mr. Minister, as the Member of Parliament for Charlotte County--an area with a long history in the fishing industry, please help us get this message to the right ears that the Stability Booklets are an expense the industry cannot afford--the purchase price is the sustainability of the stocks. Thank you.

This was written by Allen Abbott. He's the director of the Fundy Weir Fishermen's Association.