Evidence of meeting #53 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was plan.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Larry Murray  Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Sue Kirby  Assistant Deputy Minister, Oceans and Habitat Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
William Doubleday  Director General, Economic Analysis and Statistics, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Kevin Stringer  Director General, Resource Management Directorate, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Wendy Watson-Wright  Assistant Deputy Minister, Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Richard Wex  Director General, Habitat Management Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

I call the meeting to order. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are studying the environmental process modernization plan and the funding of scientific research by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses here. A few members still have to appear, but we'll start to hear our witnesses so that we will have lots of time to ask questions.

The witnesses are Larry Murray, deputy minister; Kevin Stringer, director general of the resource management directorate, fisheries and aquaculture management; Cal Hegge, assistant deputy minister, human resources and corporate services; Wendy Watson-Wright, assistant deputy minister, science sector; Sue Kirby, assistant deputy minister, oceans and habitat sector; and William Doubleday, director general, economic analysis and statistics.

Welcome to our witnesses.

11:05 a.m.

Larry Murray Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is a pleasure for me to appear before you again today.

As the committee has requested, we'll be making presentations on the environmental process modernization plan and our response to recent decisions of the Federal Court on science funding.

I think all members have copies of the presentations. We've also provided a copy of our interim policy guidance on what we call the continuation of collaborative arrangements, which is code for our response to the Larocque decision, and which I think is the area the committee is particularly interested in. Just by way of information, we will be commencing discussions with industry next Monday in Vancouver on that draft policy.

We've also provided a copy of a letter in response to one of Mr. Stoffer's questions last week about habitat restoration projects in B.C.—although, in fairness to the clerk, I don't think there's been a chance to distribute it yet.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Actually, we've received that, Mr. Murray. Thank you for that. It will be sent out to all the members.

11:05 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Larry Murray

And recognizing the desire to get on with questions, we do have the two decks. We've put a fair amount of information in the deck, Mr. Chair, but we will live with the timeframe so that there's time for questions.

With your indulgence, sir, I'll ask Sue Kirby to do a brief run-through of the deck on the habitat management program and the environmental process modernization deck. Then Dr. Doubleday will run through the other deck on collaborative arrangements.

I should say that, in addition to his day job, Dr. Doubleday has been chairing the committee that we've had in order to try come to grips with the fallout of recent court decisions. And Mr. Stringer is on that same committee.

Sue.

11:05 a.m.

Sue Kirby Assistant Deputy Minister, Oceans and Habitat Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you, Deputy.

I believe all members have a copy of the deck entitled “The Habitat Management Program and the Environmental Process Modernization Plan”. The deck begins with some context that I commend to the committee. In the interest of time, I won't go through the context at the front of the deck. It gives both the legal basis and the policy and practice basis for the environmental process modernization plan.

I intend to start on page 6 of the deck, where we have completed the context and are into the plan itself.

Page 6 lists the elements that are part of our environmental process modernization plan, which we introduced in 2004. There were five original elements. The first and probably the most fundamental element is the risk management framework. I will take a tiny bit more time on that than on some of the others. The second element is around streamlining regulatory reviews. The third is around coherence and predictability. The fourth is around enhancing partnerships. And the fifth is around a new management model for environmental assessments and major projects.

Those were the five initial elements; as of 2005 we added a sixth element, habitat compliance modernization.

On page 7 of the deck we look at the risk management framework. The main thing I would say with regard to the risk management framework is that it was used to make more explicit and more transparent risk management choices that were already needing to be made in terms of managing habitat. In order to do that, we developed two tools--first, the pathways of effects, and second, the risk assessment framework matrix. In addition to those, we have some guidance for staff.

On page 8 is a diagram that looks at the pathways of effects. We have a number of pathways. I've just provided one example. It looks like a complex diagram, but what it's intended to portray is that we want to make very explicit to Canadians what the effects are that we're concerned about.

At the bottom of the diagram, you'll see a series of oblong circles--whatever you call those--that talk about the effects of concern to us, such as change in sediment concentrations, change in water temperature, and so on. Those are the effects that we are trying to avoid or manage.

At the top of the diagram, you see the activities. As I say, we have quite a number of these. This particular example is around vegetation clearing. What we look at in the pathway of effect is how you get from activity to impact. We try to break the pathway of effect, indicated by the X symbols through the pathway. In this particular example, by avoiding the use of herbicides, we've broken the pathway that would have led to a change in contaminant concentrations. You see in the middle of the diagram that in this particular example, we have two where we have not broken the pathway of effect, leading us to residual impacts.

For areas where we've not been able to break the pathway through redesign of the project and we end up with residual effects, we then go to our risk assessment matrix, shown on page 9. We look at those residual effects in terms of how risky we think the remaining activity is and how sensitive the habitat is that would be affected. Is this a low, medium, or high risk in terms of the likely impacts of the activity? And by that, we're looking at things like the duration of the activity and the scale of the activity.

On the other side of the matrix, we're looking at sensitivity of fish habitat. For example, is this a species that is particularly sensitive to environmental changes? Is this a habitat area that is particularly critical because it's a species that cannot adapt to other spawning areas, for example?

That's a very quick overview of risk management. We can come back to it or we can provide additional explanation, as the committee wishes. I think it's fundamental to the changes we have introduced that we have tried to make that risk management framework explicit and design our tools according to the degree of residual risk.

Element 2 on page 10 looks at streamlining regulatory reviews. We've been looking primarily for that element, up to this point, at the new tools that would help us in particularly those areas where we're looking at low sensitivity and low risk in terms of impact--the green part, in the previous diagram. In those cases, we've developed a variety of new tools.

Our operational statements are listed in annex 1 of the deck. I won't go through them all. On page 15 you have the complete list of operational statements that have been completed and approved and are now being used as part of our streamlining of low-risk activities.

We also, in terms of streamlining, have looked at where we could look at one-window delivery in provinces. That has been particularly effective in eastern Canada. We have systems in place in New Brunswick, P.E.I., and Nova Scotia that we believe are working quite well for low-risk activities. We're still working, and we have discussions under way with other provinces.

Moving to slide 11, we have elements three and four of the EPMP. The first is on coherence and predictability in decision-making. The main issue we were attempting to address was the concern expressed to us that individual biologists were probably making different decisions, or were perceived to be making different decisions. The primary things we have introduced with EPMP are a more rigorous training program for all our habitat practitioners and a standard operating policy manual for the practitioners so we can try to get better coherence across the country and, again, make it easier for external proponents to have some confidence that there will be coherence and predictability.

Element 4 of the EPMP is about partnering. Under this element, we have worked on a number of memoranda of understanding with different groups, starting, most importantly, with provinces. In some cases, we have some of those done, which you'll see on the slide. Some are under way.

We have developed several MOUs with stakeholders. The most recent was one the minister signed with a coalition of nine conservation NGOs. We have some under development. The next one, which we hope to have available for signature, is with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, but that's at a fairly early stage compared to some of the others. The municipalities themselves had wanted to take more time in terms of preparing to work with us on that MOU.

On slide 12, you'll see the final two elements of the EPMP. The first, on environmental assessment and major projects, involves two things. It involves some organizational changes to set up major project units in each region of the country and provide some new resources to do that. That led to the development of some policy changes. Here are two, I guess, that I would outline. We had, in a number of cases, some concerns raised that for major projects that would involve an environmental assessment and might involve other departments, DFO was seen as triggering late in the process. So we introduced a policy change so we would trigger an environmental assessment for major projects earlier.

The other major policy change under that category is related to the scoping of projects to ensure that we're working effectively with provinces and other federal players in terms of environmental assessments.

The sixth element, habitat compliance modernization, has been our move, on the compliance side, to ensure that we're lining up with the risk matrix and that we introduce elements in terms of the history of the proponents when we look at possible risks related to compliance. This is where we've introduced the new habitat monitors. That's been discussed at this committee several times. The major effect of that has been to allow us, through the monitors, to check on two aspects of the mitigation measures introduced to protect habitat. One is the effectiveness of those measures; we were never really able to do that until we introduced the new habitat monitors. The other is compliance effectiveness.

In terms of the way forward, there are a couple of things I would like to emphasize on slide 13. The EPMP has been a DFO reform initiative, if you will, and it has really been focused on our DFO processes. The next step we believe we need to take is with other departments, particularly with Transport Canada, with respect to navigable waters. We recognize that there needs to be better alignment between us and Transport Canada, and we plan to work on that as the next step.

In conclusion, the other thing on slide 14 that I would like to draw to your attention, in addition to what we've already discussed, is annex 3, which is provided at the back of the deck. That shows you that there have been some increases to resources for the habitat management program over the last three years. At the departmental level there was an overall investment of $99 million that the minister has talked to you about. The habitat portion of that was $6 million, so you see that reflected in terms of the increases and also some of the funding for the new habitat monitors.

We're hopeful that the budget statement around a major projects management office may eventually also deliver some additional resources to us, but that has not yet been divided up between departments, so we do not know what the impact of that will be at this point in time.

If these numbers appear a bit different from others you see elsewhere, this does not include the attribution of enabler functions in the department to programs that you see in the main estimates. This is the program spending itself for habitat management and the increase that we've seen in the regions at the front line, and this is the overall national number for that over the last three years.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Thanks, Sue.

Bill, go ahead, please.

11:15 a.m.

Dr. William Doubleday Director General, Economic Analysis and Statistics, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you.

I have a brief presentation on our response to last year's decisions in the Federal Court. I'd like to take you through it. It gives the context and an indication of what our response is.

DFO has a long-standing policy of shared stewardship with the industry. We believe this gives better results, sustainable use of the fish resources, and higher value when those with the most attachment to the resources, the fishers, are involved in its sustainable management and conservation.

DFO, in cooperation with the industry, has entered into joint project arrangements with the industry to agree on incremental activities that benefit both parties. These have been funded directly by the organizations through a cash contribution or through the use of fish. The use of fish means a quota was allocated for the purposes of generating money for the project.

The use of fish policy evolved over the years until the 2006 court decisions. In 2006, the Federal Court of Canada held in the Larocque and APPFA decisions that the minister did not own the fishery resource. DFO can no longer use allocations of fish to finance scientific or fisheries management activities, and DFO cannot issue a licence with an allocation of fish for financing purposes. So the court was not critical of having collaborative arrangements; the court was critical about allocating fish to pay for them.

As a result of those decisions, DFO reviewed existing practices, including collaborative arrangements that had a use of fish component for financing purposes. We came to the conclusion that many arrangements will have to be modified in order to be brought into compliance with the court ruling. DFO will seek to sustain activities essential to conservation and to minimize any disruption.

The minister, through DFO, is responsible for managing a common property owned by the people of Canada on behalf of all Canadians. This involves developing and implementing integrated fisheries management plans based on scientific advice and stakeholder consultation. These result in the creation of private benefits for licence holders authorized to use the common property. DFO pays for conservation and sustainable management of the common property. The purpose of collaborative arrangements was to allow incremental activities to be conducted that would increase the benefit to licence holders.

Our primary objectives and principles in responding to these decisions are that the minister will act within his legislative authority; highest priority will be given to programs for conservation and protection of fish and effective management of fisheries; fishers who benefit from access to public resources should contribute to costs of managing them; we seek operational consistency across the country; we support shared stewardship; and we want to achieve a fair distribution of public financing across fisheries and regions.

Part of the way forward on this is our proposed new Fisheries Act, Bill C-45, which was tabled in December 2006 and has not yet been passed, which would establish modern legislation for sustainable development of seacoast and inland fisheries and would authorize the minister to enter into fisheries management agreements with recognized fishing organizations to further conservation, sustainable development, or participation in fisheries management. Under these fishery management agreements, funding arrangements, including quotas of fish, could be entered into with respect to the management of the fishery.

We also have a new investment in fisheries research. Budget 2007 announced new financing to expand fisheries science to respond to new and emerging pressures, including the court rulings adversely affecting government-industry partnership mechanisms for fisheries science, and new demands for ecosystem-based approaches to support conservation and long-term sustainability.

For the government-industry collaborative arrangements and stock assessment and related research that are consistent with the court decisions, we received $10 million for fiscal year 2007-08, followed by $12 million a year until 2012.

DFO is currently reviewing about 170 collaborative arrangements. There is a large number of them, they're quite diverse, and they're spread across the country. That's a lot to look at. Allocations of fish previously used to fund collaborative arrangements have returned to the fishers.

DFO will assign the highest priority to conservation and effective fisheries management, and ensuring minimal disruption of fisheries. It will assign its resources primarily to avoid the risk of serious or irreversible harm to conservation. Where possible, it will consider providing programs and services that are incremental to those essential to conservation.

Regarding progress to date, we immediately compiled an inventory of arrangements after the court decisions and began an internal review process. A national committee, which I had the pleasure chairing, was established to review the existing approach to collaborative arrangements. We developed an action plan—including a policy guidance framework, which has been distributed to the committee—and a decision-making process. We have a master list of collaborative arrangements, with associated legal risk, and we group those into similar categories to expedite the review and approval process.

We are undertaking a case-by-case review of each arrangement. We will work with industry to find ways to obtain the benefits of those arrangements in a way that's consistent with the court decisions.

We are also rolling out an engagement strategy. I'm travelling with some colleagues to Vancouver next Monday to meet with the B.C. industry, as the first of a series of consultations.

Together with increased science support for ecosystem-based management, this response will maintain an improved DFO scientific research and advisory capacity.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Thank you.

Is it possible to get the master list of all collaborative arrangements for the committee?

11:20 a.m.

Director General, Economic Analysis and Statistics, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Dr. William Doubleday

Yes. We will provide it.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

That will be appreciated. Thank you.

The first questioners, Mr. Simms and Mr. Matthews, are splitting their time.

Would you like me to keep you to five minutes, Mr. Simms, so that Mr. Matthews has an opportunity?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

You may have to. I've been last before, and sometimes it's necessary.

First, thank you for coming.

Second, we heard some pretty explosive comments made in our last committee. We'll get to that a bit later. I have a suspicion my honourable colleague down the way might also do that.

I would like my question to concern Bill C-45 and the ramifications of the Larocque decision.

First, Mr. Murray, how much of a shortfall has the Larocque decision been when it comes to management and conservation?

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Larry Murray

As was outlined, there has been an awful lot of very detailed review in terms of science. Our overall number of collaborator arrangements of all sorts came out at around $23 million. Some of those would not have continued; some of them have really nothing to do with science. So the overall number was around $23 million.

In terms of science and shared science, we assessed the requirement in the areas that Bill outlined to be in the order of $10 million to $12 million annually. So obviously after the decision in June and a fair amount of analysis, this became part of the budget process, which ultimately led to that unfolding in the budget.

As has also been outlined, this is a dynamic area. Individual decisions had to be taken. We took individual decisions following the decision, within the best framework of legal advice and so on, while we put together a policy framework. As has been indicated, that policy framework is now going into consultation with industry, and at the end of all of this, after further consultation with industry, we'll come back to the minister with additional advice for the revisions that may be required.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

With possible additional financing?

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Larry Murray

That's quite possible.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Under certain JPAs, I'm assuming that many of the associations will use some of the cash to fund, say, the organization or administration of their own associations. Is that correct?

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Larry Murray

I would say that is correct, and the fish is theirs to do so. One of the issues on all of this--

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

But belonging to the organization.

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Larry Murray

Well, if a group of fishers and an association decide to do this, we don't need to be involved. The reason that associations have approached us on this is that they have a problem with free riders. To some extent that's how we got into some of these JPAs. We can't be part of it anymore, so the fish are back to the fishermen. If they can organize their associations to deal with this, that's entirely up to them.

May 8th, 2007 / 11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

You touched on Bill C-45 and how this is going to.... Let me ask straight out: is it going to reverse?

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Larry Murray

Well, that would depend very much on whether Bill C-45 gets to committee and the views of committee and Parliament at the end of the day.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Let's assume that it's passed and that it's in effect today.

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Larry Murray

If the context of Bill C-45 dealing with this area is built on the same policy framework as our approach to Larocque--and that is based on our experience that shared stewardship with folks involved in the industry having part of the decision-making authority, having part of the ownership of it, works better in those fisheries--in that context, that same philosophy is captured in Bill C-45. That is obviously subject, as is this policy framework we're moving forward with, to a policy discussion--in the case of Bill C-45, discussion among parliamentarians based on what you hear, and in the case of this framework, a direct conversation with industry from coast to coast in the next few months.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Was Bill C-45 developed under the guise of the Larocque decision and needing to get around that? In other words, does Bill C-45 satisfy the courts with regard to the Larocque decision?

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Larry Murray

There are some nuances. At the level of making JPAs legal so we and industry can engage in them and avoid the free rider issue, it would basically give us the authority to do that.

I don't know, Kevin, whether you want to give more detail on that.

11:25 a.m.

Kevin Stringer Director General, Resource Management Directorate, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

I have a couple of points on that.

As the deputy said, I think the sense is that Bill C-45 would provide some tools to be able to assist with this, but in no way was Bill C-45 specifically drafted in order to deal with the Larocque stuff.

We have arrangements with fisheries groups. We do integrated fisheries management plans. We work as much as we can with fisheries groups. We don't have the legal authority to enter into an arrangement with those groups to really get into co-management. At this point it's consultation and engagement, and as much as possible we go to co-management.

We believe those sections of the proposed Fisheries Act in Bill C-45 would give us more tools to do that and to make these longer-term types of arrangements with groups, with associations. Those sections have been in previous versions. We do think it would give us some tools to address the issue of better engaging fisheries groups in more co-management types of arrangements.