Evidence of meeting #17 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was negotiations.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:55 a.m.
Chief, Trade Rules, International Trade Policy Division, Department of Finance
I'll answer the first part of that.
There are a number of subsidy categories in the “red box”, as some people call it. It's our job to negotiate things out of that, and/or to put things into the green box. Is it easy? No, but that's what our job is. And Canada is not alone. We're working with like-minded members to get what we want out of this prohibited red box, if you will, and into either a green or amber box.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
But DFO does not promote the view that subsidies are a problem in the decline of any fishery in this country, which, in my opinion, if they did, would have a very negative effect. Just ask them.
In essence, they are supporting the removal of the subsidy programs out of the red box, and by that, they're not indicating that subsidies are a problem.
Can I ask that question?
9:55 a.m.
Chief, Trade Rules, International Trade Policy Division, Department of Finance
The Government of Canada's position has been developed—and this goes a little bit to Mr. Stoffer's question, I guess—by interdepartmental committees, which have discussed all of the proposals that have come out over the last six years regarding the chair's text, and we do not feel that income support programs add to overcapacity or overfishing, or that they actually belong in the scope of these negotiations.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
That's not bad.
I'm going to focus on article 8 for a moment. Article 8 is part of the SCM, or subsidies and countervailing measures agreement, which came out of GATT 1994. Is that correct?
9:55 a.m.
Chief, Trade Rules, International Trade Policy Division, Department of Finance
Article 8 deals with additional provisions to the dispute settlement understanding that came out of GATT in 1994.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
Okay.
That brings me to this point: in the House of Commons, the minister talked about the fact that because this is bracketed material, it's not necessarily written in stone, per se.
Now, my understanding is that the brackets are suggestions used by the chair. So would you say that article 8 is entirely under discussion right now, as brought forward by the chair?
9:55 a.m.
Chief, Trade Rules, International Trade Policy Division, Department of Finance
The whole text is in brackets, starting at the beginning of one bracket. The chair made it clear in his introductory note to his text that everything is bracketed.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
But it shouldn't be taken lightly, is that correct?
9:55 a.m.
Bloc
Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I appreciate your frankness. In any case, this is how I feel about your answers. Now, let me be equally frank. The situation is very worrisome to me; I do not know about you, but this is my case. In my personal experience, negotiations always begin with a text, a subject, or a fact, and then the bargaining follows. In the text that is currently being negotiated, three specific points are totally unacceptable to you. How can we negotiate? You are a negotiator, you have the experience. How can we be satisfied with negotiating a text that we would like withdrawn altogether? I feel that this is a very bad way to start negotiating. In other words, it means that the negotiations will bring about a situation that would be slightly less painful. But I do not want to hear anything about a “slightly less painful” situation. It is as simple as that. In that sense, how can you mitigate my worries, my concerns?
10 a.m.
Chief, Trade Rules, International Trade Policy Division, Department of Finance
First of all, yes, there are some parts of this text that we do not like, in the fisheries subsidy section and in the anti-dumping and the trade subsidies. There are some parts in all of these texts that we don't like. There are many parts that we do like, including in the fisheries subsidies.
We like the exemptions that are in article 2. We like the fact that special and differential treatment that developing countries may get will not extend to high-seas fisheries as they very much wanted to. We like that everything hinges on the fact that countries that provide any subsidies must have a very good fisheries management regime. We like the fact that it calls for a great deal of transparency, and any country that does offer subsidies has to notify those subsidies to the WTO. There are opportunities for peer review of fisheries management issues. There are a great number of things in the text that we like.
So we aren't starting with a text that Canada rejects completely. We are starting with a text where we have some problems and many areas we're happy with. That goes for all three sections of this rules negotiating text, and quite certainly it goes for all the draft text that is being discussed in other areas of these negotiations.
We aren't in there with our back up against the wall. We can move. We are working with like-minded countries to achieve Canada's objectives.
10 a.m.
Bloc
Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
I am coming back to the question that I wanted to put earlier, but I had no time to put it because the chair stopped things right there. It has to do with the way things work on departmental and interdepartmental levels. If I understand correctly, four departments are involved in these negotiations: the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans...
10 a.m.
A member
The Department of Industry.
10 a.m.
Bloc
Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
...and the Department of Finance. It that all? Are there any other departments?
10 a.m.
A member
How about Industry?
10 a.m.
Director General, Multilateral Trade Policy, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)
Of course, in fact, several departments are involved in the discussions. Clearly, the Department of Agriculture is in charge of all agricultural issues. With regard to trade...
10 a.m.
Bloc
10 a.m.
Director General, Multilateral Trade Policy, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)
In terms of this file, this is, in fact, the case. We must note the fact that the activities of the WTO, as a whole, involve a vast variety of different fields. Therefore, there is always some interest that goes beyond merely private interest.
10 a.m.
Bloc
Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
The one who is in charge of managing all of that is Mr. Emerson, the Minister of International Trade, I think? Did I understand correctly?
10 a.m.
Director General, Multilateral Trade Policy, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)
Minister Emerson is in charge of International Trade, which includes Canada's obligations towards the WTO. Obviously, he must have...
10 a.m.
Bloc
