Fisheries Committee on May 26th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Once bitten, twice shy.

Mr. Blais, I believe you're on next.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon. I want to thank you for your warm welcome.

It is my turn, Mrs McLeod, to thank you for your presentation. You have given us a very good overview of the issues. When we talk about small craft harbours, aside from the fact that we are dealing here with valuable and crucial infrastructures, we always come to the conclusion that there is a lack of funding and that with more dollars things could be improved. But you are going further. You have provided evidence about the various aspects of funding and showed how essential these docking facilities are. At the same time, you raised new issues that arise today: climate change, dredging problems that become more and more difficult to manage, insurance issues and derelict ships. People are looking for solutions to all these problems.

You gave us a very well researched presentation, Mrs McLeod, and it is my understand that up to now the government is not providing any long term vision in this whole area. Indeed, it looks like they are applying a band-aid on a wooden leg. One could even say, without intending offence to anyone, this is like prescribing aspirin to somebody with cancer. There is a budget of some 100 million dollars but we know very well that things are getting worse every year. So the money is not enough.

I do not get from you any sense of exasperation or discouragement. You still are optimistic about the future of the small craft harbours program, which is commendable.

I would like to hear your views on a possible long term action plan. What would be the priorities? Some are more costly than others. It is my feeling — and you will tell me if I am wrong — that we need a long term plan based on a vision. If we had a clear vision, this would lead to actions that would allow us to meet the huge challenges we will face in the coming years.

I would like to know, Mrs McLeod, if you share my views on the need for a long term action plan.

[Elizabeth McLeod]

I think you're quite right in saying that there is no long-term plan by government for issues such as dredging and derelict vessels. It needs to be noted that both of these things are really outside the guidelines for the small craft harbours program, so we're looking at the rest of government to pick up the ball with this. What you're seeing in B.C., in my understanding, was that when Transport Canada decided to remove the dredging program across Canada, they were depending on industry to pick up that ball and go ahead, but because we are still dependent on government for our funding, we don't have the dollars that it's going to require to come in and dredge out the channels leading to our harbours. We don't have the money within the budget to dredge out the harbours. Again, everything that is affecting that is the increased climate change, weather patterns, and flooding on the Fraser. All of these things have an effect.

One thing we do know is that if the dredging situation is not looked at, then we are not going to have usable harbours in many of our areas. I can speak for one of my harbours, which is dependent on the channel leading up to it. If nothing changes, we're certainly going to lose that harbour as an effective portion of our network within probably the next five years because of siltation.

Derelict vessels is also another one that has never been looked at. It's not just the problem with fishing vessels, but it's a problem with other vessels as well. Not long ago in B.C. we had refugee boats from China being dumped on us. Again, there's just no venue for anybody to plan around the removal of these things. They're extremely costly. Off the top of my head, to destroy the average 35-foot fishing vessel because of the contaminated waste and everything else on board, you're probably looking at $10,000 a vessel. And we have many of these in our harbours.

While our larger harbours are fairly effective because we have staff in moving these vessels along, they wind up in areas such as the north, in Lutz's harbour or Ben's harbour, where they don't have the staff to be on the dock saying, “Wait a minute. You can't bring that boat in here.”

These are the areas I would certainly like to see government focusing on, as well as our funding issues within our program, but certainly multi-government committees perhaps, to address those two issues.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I would also like to talk about the safety issue. You mentioned several times — and we hear this more and more often — that things are becoming less and less safe. I would like to hear your comments on this.

[Elizabeth McLeod]

Again, I find myself, unfortunately, speaking on behalf of my harbour rather than all harbours, but I think it affects all of us. The changing weather patterns that we're seeing now are hitting our harbours with way more force--winds and waves--than they were designed to take. That is combined with 40-year-old, 50-year-old, 60-year-old infrastructure. It's not at the beginning of its lifespan, when it could withstand, perhaps, high winds or high wave values. So that actually exacerbates the problem.

Safety is our primary concern. If our vessels are damaged from storms because they're breaking away from our docks, this is a whole group of people who are out of work for that season. So these are things we do have to pay attention to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Blais.

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Once again, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for appearing before us today. I always admire the professionalism and the great way you're able to present your situation very clearly to us. It's very helpful, I can assure you.

One of the questions I have for you off the top is are there any aboriginal harbour authorities in your organization? I'm thinking of small communities where there are harbours in aboriginal communities that may have an aboriginal-only authority.

[Elizabeth McLeod]

I believe we just had the Haisla Harbour Authority join our organization, and that would be native.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

In terms of some of the work you're looking for, is there any asking for cooperation or any thought of asking the regional, municipal, or provincial governments for assistance to, for instance, remove some of the derelict vessels or assist in some sort of harbour assistance? Out east we have what is called ACOA, the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency. Here you have the Western Diversification Fund. Is there any chance that you could look to those organizations for funding in any way?

[Linda Franz]

I would like to say that on derelict or abandoned vessels, it is a situation that occurs daily. I have been privy to having to remove two derelict vessels from my harbour, and on both occasions the harbour authority itself and Environment Canada bore the cost of removing those vessels. Yes, we do look around to try to get funding and other help to get rid of those vessels.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

On these derelict vessels, is there no way they could be offered up to someone? Just say, “Look, if you want a fishing boat, come and take it.”

[Linda Franz]

That's what's happening. That's why they become derelict. These vessels lose their licences and they lose their purpose. The first guy who walks along says “Oh yeah, I'll give you $20 for that vessel.” It's somebody's dream, right? Well, poof. There's no magic.

I'm fortunate. I'm in a larger harbour. I use my little power struggle with them, and I go out and ask them to leave the harbour. But then they go to Lutz's harbour, and Lutz isn't happy with me any more. And we have to work together.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

In terms of a northern harbour, as you have in Prince Rupert, how is the working relationship with the limited staff in DFO you have? From my understanding, it's a pretty good relationship, considering the number of people who are there.

[Lutz Budde]

First of all, I'll speak for our harbour on the Oona River. It's a very small community just outside Prince Rupert. I know that in Prince Rupert they go in and out all the time, and they do very well. They have a lot of projects under way, and some are now completed. On the harbours, Rick Hill, the manager there, seems to have a better in than most people with the small craft harbours program.

We're getting the support. Usually we get the support, but we still need the funding for it. The reason we're concerned is that we get the projects on the books, but the problem, when it really gets down to it, is the funding.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

The last question I have is on False Creek. There's an area that had a shady past a hundred years ago. Then it became Expo. I think you have one of the most unique harbours in Canada, because you're surrounded by an international cosmopolitan city with a whole bunch of expensive yachts going in and out. That must have its own challenges. I was wondering if you could share for a brief moment the challenges you have in managing a harbour authority in the middle of a major international city.

[Art Childs]

You definitely hit the nail on the head. We are under close inspection, whether we realize it or not, 24 hours a day. We have quite a development of condominiums all around us. Having environmental watchdogism is a real concern out here. In False Creek we obviously have a very proactive attitude toward our environmental policies. We also take a very proactive approach in the management of our harbour and its appearance. We realize that we're surrounded, and everything we do is being closely watched.

On the challenges we face, you're absolutely right. Not that many years ago, False Creek still had that rough reputation and it was....

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

I kind of liked it, actually.

[Art Childs]

We're very aware of our location and we've tried very hard to develop a very good relationship with our neighbours. We've invited strata managers down to the harbour, introduced them to the operation, because I think most of the time they were thinking, “Those awful fish boats are down there, and we just want them to go away, because they're ruining our view.”

We've taken the attitude that False Creek Harbour Authority is one of the most unique harbours in Canada, in that it's in a very urban location and actually can be a very strong community tie to bind our community together in False Creek. So we welcome the public down to our harbour and we encourage their involvement in the harbour; we encourage input from our neighbours on how we do things. It's a little different. It has many challenges, but the majority of the challenges we face have a lot to do with and are very much in common with the challenges that all of the harbour authorities on this coast face, and I'm sure all of the harbour authorities across the country face.

I'd like to step back a couple of questions to Mr. Blais' question, if I may, when he asked whether we felt there was an absence of vision. We had this very conversation this morning. As a harbour manager and a member of the Harbour Authority Association of B.C., and as a member of a larger organization that spans from California right to Alaska, I would love to be in on the long-term vision, actually, as to what the whole plan for the industry and for the whole small craft harbour program is.

As Mr. Mabberley pointed out, you guys in your last report indicated the need for solid long-term funding and the very real need to take some of our harbours from an unacceptable condition now. We're still expected to operate those harbours in a viable and fiscally responsible fashion, and it can't be done. It simply cannot be done, not when you're relying on volunteers. We need a strong, committed level of financial support as well as that strong, committed level of program support from the small craft harbours directorate.

These guys are doing their damnedest out here. They really are. And they work very hard to fill the needs of the harbours, but it's a tough row to hoe. I know you hear this all across the country, I'm sure.

When I look at the harbour authority program and what's going on out here in B.C., I see a very enthusiastic group of people trying to maintain and keep a program alive out here. And every time we turn around, we're running up against a roadblock. If I were sitting in your shoes, and God knows I'm glad I'm not, I would be saying this is an organization, a group of people who want to see this program survive and flourish. We should be giving them some level of support.

Everybody talks about small craft harbours as being centred around the commercial fishing industry. These harbours are not only the commercial fishing industry; they are literally the lifeblood for a lot of these coastal communities. Without them, what happens to those communities? They go away.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Childs. We have to move on.

Mr. Kamp.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for coming. As you may know, I'm the only member of the committee from British Columbia. So welcome to British Columbia and to my friends here.

As you know, there are only two kinds of people: those who are from B.C. and those who wish they were. Mr. Stoffer used to be from B.C., and now he wishes he were. Anyway, thank you.

I'll probably be splitting my time with my colleague Mr. Calkins, also from the west.

I wanted to follow up a bit on the comments you made about legislation, in particular as you referred to the Fishing and Recreational Harbours Act and regulations. What changes did you envision there? Are you saying that the act sort of ties your hands, or it didn't envision the regime that we now have with harbour authorities and needs to be changed to give you powers or authority that you don't have but you need to have?

I guess that's my first question. Others might want to answer this as well.

[Elizabeth McLeod]

The answer to that is a sort of twofold answer. Certainly the legislation never took into account that there were harbour authorities and wasn't updated. We have two parallel types of programs running in B.C.; one is the port authorities and one is the harbour authorities. When the port authorities came into being, there was a whole act written to enable them to properly run the ports in B.C. The Fishing and Recreational Harbours Act actually curtails what we can do as harbour authorities, because the only people who can enforce that act are federal enforcement officers.

Also, it is so out of date. I'm not sure of the date when it was put in place, but it's probably 30- or 40-year-old legislation, and it was written around government management. A harbour manager, under the act, is a federal employee. When you're reading through, it enables a “harbour manager” to do a whole pile of things, but that's not us; it's not the people who are running the harbours.

That can sometimes be counter-productive, if you're not an enforcement officer. I had a case in which we were taking somebody to court to try to collect some outstanding moorage, and he counter-sued us, saying that the act calls for an “enforcement officer” to tow a vehicle, and it certainly does.

So it's not enabling us to do those jobs. In some cases, it's acting to the detriment of harbour authorities, and that's why I would like to see it updated.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

What do you want to do that you can't do now?

[Elizabeth McLeod]

We are asked by the government to enforce the acts as they stand—the Government Property Traffic Act, every piece of legislation that has any jurisdiction over harbours—but we are unable to do it. I would like to see us enabled to operate our harbours as they should be operated.

I don't know whether that answers your question or not.

[Lutz Budde]

If I have an incident of a fishing boat polluting, the fisherman can just tell me to get lost, and I have no authority. I can phone the Department of Environment on some help line, a 1-800 number, and they'll say that's very nice and they'll be out in eight hours, but I have no authority. To enforce some of the regulations, I need that authority, to carry the weight and to be able to bring it to court, because all I am now is a witness to an incident.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

In that case, what would you want to do, if you had the power to do it?