Evidence of meeting #36 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dredging.
3 p.m.
Deputy Director, Engineering, Corporation of Delta
I haven't personally asked, but there have been letters written that have gone to different ministers in that regard with respect to secondary channel dredging. I'm not totally aware of whether or not there's a linkage with the gateway project.
3 p.m.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
My other questions are more or less for the fishermen.
I believe everyone in Canada has a place to go to a safe worksite. Fishermen really don't have that. Once you go out onto the water, you really risk your lives for the enjoyment of others, so that we can enjoy the product you bring to us.
In terms of having a boat on a dock, having it lean over because of a lack of dredging and the fact that you have very low water, and having it create a fire hazard, I would think the fire marshal of a local community would want to say something about that. In most cities that I know, if a fire marshal says something is deemed a hazard and thou shalt not continue in this way, they can shut facilities down. They can do all kinds of things. Has your situation ever been looked at in that regard?
For the fishermen themselves, when you go away and then you come back, you want to come back to a safe and happy port in order to be able to dock your investment in a safe manner. I'm just wondering about the frustration you must have over this, because this is not the first time we've heard this. We hear it right across the country. I know there will be a major recommendation in our report coming forward. I'm just wondering if you could comment on that from your perspective, if you don't mind.
3 p.m.
Representative, Fishing Vessel Owners Association, Steveston Harbour Authority
It doesn't pertain to tying up to a dock. There were some pictures passed out by Bob a little while ago. We've had vessels in Steveston Harbour high and dry, laying right over. The same thing can happen there, with big oil spills if we're talking about larger vessels more so at Ladner and places like that. It's easier to catch fire, there's more fuel to burn, and more damage can be done in the harbour. It's definitely a problem, the same as it is with the other vessels tied to the dock, like the smaller vessels listing over at low water.
I presume everybody saw those pictures that Bob passed out, of a sailing ship that's laying way over. They just about lost that boat, and that would have been a drastic thing for Steveston, Richmond, or wherever. The other fishing boats are big ones, and they're all high and dry. They're not listing over, but they could have been. In all those pictures of the boats that you've seen, they're all in trouble.
3 p.m.
General Manager, Steveston Harbour Authority
I deal with the local fire department. It has been an aspect of discussions with them, but not predominantly. It's just to make sure we have proper firefighting equipment on site. As I mentioned on the tour today, we welcome our local fire department on site today to talk about all kinds of fire possibilities and such, and how to mitigate the risks.
There's one interesting thing there when you talk about public safety, if I may. When that tall ship ran aground, that was somewhat embarrassing for Steveston. You had this massive Canadian tall ship leaning over in the channel and our staff were helping to bail people off. It was just “Oh, God....” Even the swans were appalled.
3 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I bet that would never happen in Comox.
Thank you very much for coming, and thank you very much for the tour. It was remarkable, and we appreciate it a great deal. As I mentioned to some of you, my wife grew up in Ladner. We lived there for a while, and also in Steveston, so it was good to be back there.
I have just three areas of questions, and they probably won't take too long. Perhaps my colleague has some additional questions as well.
There is such a thing as the Fraser River Estuary Management Program. You're probably aware of it. I know it does dredging. It's an organization that tries to coordinate the agencies that are interested and involved both in the environmental aspect and the management aspect of the river and on the water side of the dikes. Have you had any involvement with them, and do you think they should be playing a role in any sort of secondary channel dredging? I think what we're hearing so far—and I think we knew this before—is that it appears as though nobody really has it within their mandate to dredge secondary channels. At least that's what it looks like so far, so that will be an interesting point of discussion in our report.
But do you think FREMP, as they call it, has any role to play here, Mr. Fraser?
3:05 p.m.
Deputy Director, Engineering, Corporation of Delta
Maybe I can start by saying that FREMP is good from an overall agency coordination perspective and in looking at all of the various issues from the approvals perspective, like DFO approvals, Ministry of Environment approvals, and regional approvals. It keeps us on the straight and narrow. We have to make numerous applications there.
From a dredging management perspective, they're more of an oversight body and I don't really see them getting into the nitty-gritty of doing that activity. I think it would be more appropriate that there be better liaisons between the small harbour authorities and the larger Vancouver Fraser Port Authority. If that could be done in terms of, I don't know, maybe a separate committee—and maybe others have ideas on this perspective—there would be a larger organization that would assist with ensuring the funds were applied to address the specific problems. I know the dredges are there. The equipment's there, so it's just a matter of getting the funds to the right place.
3:05 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC
Yes, and I think there are some discussions along that line.
3:05 p.m.
Member, Area E Gillnetters Association
When FREMP came to fruition, their mandate basically was to not touch anything that's naturally occurring, to keep the grass green. If you want to drive a new pile into the ground, you have to go through the proper steps and jump through the proper hoops. But a lot of our issues with siltation and dredging are occurring because, as man, we have altered the flow of the river. We've certainly altered Steveston and we've altered the south Fraser in the Ladner area. We've changed it, so we need to take into consideration those changes and what needs to be done with respect to them.
It's not as simple as saying these channels are going to remain clear because they have done so for hundreds and thousands of years. Mr. Lévesque said they've opened up dams in the St. Lawrence to allow the flows to go back where they were before. We need to look at things like that, because the natural flows of the water aren't going the way they used to go.
3:05 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC
I understand the point you've made. You've referred to a chart or two, but has that been documented in terms of the rates of flow, siltation load, and so on, in terms of all these things that have been referred to? Has that been documented and is it available for us to look at? Does anyone know that?
3:05 p.m.
General Manager, Steveston Harbour Authority
Mr. Richardson could probably speak to that, but I believe small craft harbours directorate has done some studies on the flow and the siltation, with some colour-coded things. The engineering department for the Pacific region may have those answers.
3:05 p.m.
Deputy Director, Engineering, Corporation of Delta
Just with respect to the broader river system, the Fraser Basin Council recently coordinated a large study to look at the whole flood issue, and they also looked at the effects of dredging in terms of the flood levels. But in terms of the whole estuary, the flow regimes are very complicated, so maybe there probably is a need for further work and understanding there.
3:05 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC
Yes, I've seen that report and it is an attempt at that.
3:05 p.m.
Chair, Ladner Harbour Fishers' Committee
There are some charts available in the archives. I'm sure your brother-in-law, being the historian that he is, could tell you.
One of those things we had in the harbour the other day showed an old chart of where the river came down. It didn't show any flow, but it showed the depths of the river. The latest one we have doesn't give any depths, but I know an old-timer was telling me that at one time, just upriver from where our harbour is in Ladner, there was 60 feet of water. Now there might be 10 feet on high tide. That channel used to come right from the main river and come right through Ladner. There are maps that show it, but I don't know where you would get the water flow answer.
3:10 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC
Let me just change tracks a little bit here—and I think this is probably to Nancy and Hugh.
In the model that you have in Ladner Harbour, the council takes the role of harbour authority, if I'm understanding that correctly. I'm just wondering if you can tell us a bit more about how that works. I know it's a fairly unusual arrangement, and I think we're maybe going to see it tomorrow in Port McNeill as well. I'm wondering if you think it's a model that really is a good model, and whether we ought to consider maybe recommending it in other places across the country.
3:10 p.m.
Manager, Community Recreation Services, Corporation of Delta
I'd be happy to take a stab at that.
Delta is very unique in this arrangement. From talking with other harbour managers, I think one of the most difficult challenges they have is trying to have support from the local city, the local town. I don't know that there's an appetite for those particular local charters or for those communities to enter into them. I don't know if the City of Vancouver would be interested in False Creek, and I don't know if the City of Richmond would be interested in Steveston. This has evolved because Ladner, Tsawwassen, and North Delta have been historic fishing communities, and there's great pride in that, in the heritage.
I think any community development model is a good one. You have one of the finest here with the Harbour Authority Association. If you can encourage local government to get involved, it would be a good thing, but I don't know how practical it would be with all the rest of the pressures that local governments face.
We run golf courses in some municipalities. I don't know too many.... I think maybe five are tied in with the harbour authorities in British Columbia. Some run cemeteries. There's a whole gamut of municipal services, and each one is involved for a particular reason.
3:10 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC
What would you see as the main benefit of that kind of arrangement rather than a stand-alone harbour authority?
3:10 p.m.
Manager, Community Recreation Services, Corporation of Delta
The main benefit is that the governance of the council provides a tremendous reinforcement to staff about managing the assets of the corporation, going to bat and putting in extra time, communicating with engineering departments, the finance department, and so forth. It's like how DFO needs to have those kinds of communications with their different departments to be able to manage assets well. You know how government works. In a microcosm, the corporation does quite well, but I have dedicated time when probably a quarter of my time is spent working on harbour matters, when I also manage recreation facilities for the department, so it is a good investment for the corporation.
3:10 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC
Mr. Fraser, do you have anything to add?
3:10 p.m.
Deputy Director, Engineering, Corporation of Delta
I'd just say that what it does is provide support to the volunteers. For example, with the pump-out facilities, there's a lot of engineering. We did some unique things with respect to that particular project. There's expertise that can be drawn on from a larger organization. That's particularly beneficial. We were hearing that in other jurisdictions there's a kind of volunteer burnout. Well, understandably so. There are an awful lot of things to managing an organization, so if you can draw on experts, then it's positive.
3:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning
Thank you, Mr. Fraser, Mr. Kamp.
That clears up the round. Due to the reorganization before we started, we ended up with a very full table. I noticed as we were going through that the gentleman in the corner didn't get an opportunity to answer any questions or to comment. Just outside our round here, then, I'm going to give Mr. Williamson a few moments to make a few closing remarks on some of the concerns he may have. We won't have time for any questions or anything, but we'll just give him an opportunity to make a few comments.
If you want to do that for three or four minutes, the floor is yours, sir.
3:10 p.m.
Director, Area E Gillnetters Association
Yes, I do.
I'd like to talk about a little bit further up the Fraser, just opposite New Westminster. That's where the freighters come in. They're in behind one of these training walls. The training wall is here and they bring the freighters in behind it. They're pumping out of there constantly with a dredge. They're dredging it. I don't know if it goes on all year round, but it goes on lots.
They take it out and they pump into the river. They just spew it back into the river out here. That then comes down into the secondary channels below and silts them in. In the last five years, this silting in has been twice what it used to be.
The engineers have said this is the way to do it. Take it out there, put it back in over here, then pump it out, and then let it settle over in Ladner, Steveston Harbour, or wherever.
As far as FREMP goes, FREMP knows all about this. I couldn't bring a dredge in or a clamshell and dredge my two lots out in the middle of summer because there are fingerlings in the river. But they're dredging this stuff out of the Fraser port, dumping it back into the river, and letting it drift down the river to us. As far as I can see, there's absolutely no point to it.
In the main part of the river, all the dredging that's done there is done by a ship dredge. He picks it up down by Steveston, he takes it up further and dumps it back in the river, and a little dredge pumps some of that ashore because that's good sand. But the stuff at Fraser port is silt. Nobody wants to buy silt, so they dump it back in the river and we have to deal with it.
I used to have twelve feet at my float. Last year I came in on the eight-foot tide and ran aground ten feet outside the float. I had to sit there on bottom and wait about an hour an a half—the tide was coming up—before I could get in and tie up at the float. And I'm being charged for the foreshore that I can't get into part of the time. So on the whole issue of dredging, the complete lack of it is the problem.
Somebody mentioned $200,000. That's a drop in the bucket compared to what needs to be here. Two million dollars might help, but unless there's some major funding and the harbour board doesn't put all the money they get into Vancouver Harbour, pretty soon you won't be able to get in at Ladner, which is where I live too. I'm already running aground in an eight-foot tide.
Anyway, I guess I'm getting a little carried away here. I wish I had time to answer some questions.
3:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning
Thank you. That's fine.
I certainly want to thank everybody for their presentations here today. As I said, we've travelled pretty well coast to coast in Canada now, and everywhere we go, we learn something new and something to add to our study. Certainly today's visit is no different. The circumstances here are certainly different from those in the places we have visited before, but some of the concerns are similar.
Finding a way to address those issues is certainly the purpose of our study. Our plan is to clue up this week on our travels and hopefully make the presentation of the study to the House of Commons sometime this fall.
In the meantime, if there's anything you would like to add in writing, feel free to forward it to the clerk or to the analysts. Over the next while, if there's something you remember after we pass today or that may come to mind as time goes on, we will start the process of putting our report together over the summer months, so you'll have time to make that presentation.
I want to thank everybody for their presence here today. Thank you again for the tour this morning. We're finished up now, but hopefully we'll cross paths again. Hopefully some of the information that you have provided to us today will be part and parcel of our study. Certainly some of the recommendations that will be forthcoming will be ones you would like to hear, and hopefully they will be acted upon.
With that, I'll once again say thank you.
I find that we have added on another family member. Our clerk's family has arrived. Her brother Sandy has joined us. If we had to stay around long enough we might have gotten to meet her dad, right, but he's in Ottawa.