No problem.
Evidence of meeting #38 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishermen.
Evidence of meeting #38 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishermen.
11:15 a.m.
Conservative
11:15 a.m.
Manager, Goodman's Landing
My name is Kevin Sigurdson. I'm here on behalf of the chief and council of Kinonjeoshtegon First Nation, representing their business of Goodman's Landing Fisheries Limited.
Some of those pictures that you see are basically just pictures. We don't have any fancy presentation or anything. I just wanted to give you guys an idea of the worst-case scenarios. Of course, the worst-case scenarios are when the water is too high or the water is too low. The biggest thing is that the fishermen do not have protection for their boats.
Just to give a little bit of background, in 2002, the chief and council hired me as a manager to operate their facility at Goodman's Landing. Since that time, we've gone from about $600,000 in revenue to about $1.8 million. It's growing all the time.
Society is changing. The lake stations in the past were all about the fishermen going out to an island, and there would be 40 of them staying there. They built their own docks and went out to this station. Well, society now, today, as we know, is changing, because now the fishermen want to be closer to their families. They want to be home with their children. If it's blowing for a week, they want to be able to go home. So they need road access.
Goodman's Landing provides, on the west side of the lake, road access to the middle of Lake Winnipeg. It's the furthest road access in that area. Of course, in Kinonjeoshtegon First Nation, we have a high rate of unemployment. But we have a very viable fishery. We have fluctuating numbers of between 93 and 108 fishermen. There were 103 T4Fs filed for last year. In 2007 we generated about $1.8 million for about 315,000 kilos of fish.
Since 2002—you'll see one of the pictures, the older pictures with older camps and stuff like that, as they go around—the chief and council of Kinonjeoshtegon First Nation invested over $300,000 in capital to rebuild the camps for the fishermen to live in and to upgrade their ice facilities and stations.
The existing harbour, as you see it, was originally built by the band in 1974 or 1975, I believe--Henry might be able to answer this one--with help from Manitoba Northern Affairs, because they were having trouble getting the boats into the Jackhead River. Since that time, several fish stations have closed down on Lake Winnipeg, because it wasn't viable for them to be hauling fish by boat. So we've been getting an increase in fishermen, and we can only see that the increases are going to be going on a lot longer. I believe we should be getting up to about 500,000 kilos of fish within about three years.
Why are we here today? I'm here today because Goodman's Landing is not part of the small craft harbours plan. We're an individual fish station located on crown lands, six kilometres north of the Kinonjeoshtegon First Nation. Since 2002, we've been after Alan to try to get us some money to build a harbour. The same old thing goes on. We're not a harbour authority, and as you said before, you're not taking on any new harbours.
Everything is changing, so you have to start looking at new ideas for the future. Kinonjeoshtegon is rebuilding the fishery. They want tourism. The north end of Lake Winnipeg is not as developed as the south end. You mentioned before that there is this one 9 miles away and that one 10 miles away. Well, in the north they're 40, 50, and 60 miles away.
Because of the changes and the harbour we have now, we fear for the fishermen's safety and for their equipment. They're using the boats and motors and stuff that are not being protected. You'll see the high waters. There's no breakwater at all, and we've got no boat ramps. We make do. We're not complaining.
You said you had $40,000 to hand out to harbour authorities and stuff like that. Wow, could we use 40,000 bucks! The number the small craft harbours program had come up with was going to be around $600,000 or $700,000.
Another issue that always comes up to the first nations communities is “Sorry, you're a part of Indian and Northern Affairs and we can't help you.” These are all fishermen. It's fishermen, and you've got tourism in the future.
The question was asked before. I believe that if there were some real direction from the small craft harbours program, Indian and Northern Affairs would step up to the table in a joint venture, because without the organization of the small craft harbours program to initiate the harbour authorities for a separate place..... I don't know this for sure, but something could be worked out.
Why is Goodman's Landing a key site? It's a key site because it will allow 75 fishers from about 25 miles north, from McBeth Point, which has a small craft harbour, to come and unload their stuff. They're in a remote station where they've only got access by boat, so they kind of use that as the stopping-over point where they come back for supplies and stuff like that. So there's 75 there.
The Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation has a barge that is running, and if there were a new harbour at Goodman's Landing, that boat could save about eight hours on a round trip to provide them with fresher, faster access--road access. As I said before, it looks as if there's going to be no road to the east side, so we feel we could help the communities with a shorter distance if we had a protected harbour. In the past they have been helpful in our region because they gave us some old docks. Anything we can use we look after as long as we can, and even old docks are better than none.
All—I shouldn't say all; the other fishing communities have safe harbours for their fishermen. All we're asking now is for you to recognize that changes are happening, and the old way of doing things, where all the fishermen were going out to the camps and this and that.... They want to be closer to their families.
I believe Goodman's Landing is the number one site for you to be looking at for a new harbour. I know there's a lot of red tape, because we're not a harbour, but we really feel strongly for that.
In 2005, as you can see by the pictures, we were flooded out. The following year we had too little water. We've got to dredge it. The community spends about $5,000 to $7,500 a year dredging it out. As you know, we're not supposed to be dredging them out, but what do you do if the boats can't come into the harbour? You've got to do what you've got to do in the fishing industry, as everybody knows.
In asking for a new harbour, we don't want to see any facilities decommissioned on the lake. We should keep those other facilities running because we don't know what's going to happen in the future. Keep them running on the lake because we don't know what's going to happen in 20 years. There's very little maintenance to a facility that's not being used every day. So I wouldn't want to see any changes to any existing harbours.
Somebody mentioned a little earlier the idea of “build it and they will come”. The Kinonjeoshtegon First Nation started revitalizing their station, and do you know what? They did come. Now we need your help in ensuring that those people who are coming can have a safe harbour.
Just for your information, because you guys were asking about this before—and this is only my opinion—our family has also been on the lake for a hundred years. We had traders on the boat. I've personally seen a lot of these small craft harbours coming into Warren Landing, rebuilding Black River, rebuilding Catfish Creek and Berens River. We've used those facilities over the years. I grew up with them.
Where was I going with that? I don't know where I was going with that one, but it was a good one.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning
Yes, I'm sure, but we need to get our questions going.
Thank you very much for your presentation. Again, I realize you're trying to cover a lot of ground here, but I'm sure some of this further information may come forward as we begin our questions.
Mr. MacAulay, the floor is yours.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Thank you very much for coming, gentlemen.
We've been touring the country and listening to different sets of problems. We've heard overall a great report for small craft harbours as far as the front-line people are concerned.
Mr. Sigurdson, you indicated that it's Goodman's Landing. Am I correct?
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
That wharf was built solely by the community. Is it fully a first nations community?
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Yes. Is everybody who fishes there a member of that first nations people?
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
You want this committee to put in a report to the Minister of Fisheries and the government. What I would expect you want in that report is that you'd like to expand a little bit on the idea that your fishermen have a long piece to go in order to get to a safe harbour. You have to dredge it yourselves. In fact, it's close to impossible for you to provide what you're providing, so what you want this committee to have in its reports is the necessity of that for safety reasons and economic reasons. Is that correct?
11:30 a.m.
Manager, Goodman's Landing
That is correct, yes. We need a safe harbour because the fishery is growing so much, and it is an outlet for many different communities and fishing stations on the lake. We'd like that, yes.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Time is short. Mr. Traverse, the Jackhead Reserve....
First of all, thank you for coming, and there is absolutely no need to apologize. We've heard a lot rougher language than that over time. It was not rough at all, and we're very pleased you're here.
Is your wharf totally first nation? Is that fish from the Jackhead Reserve totally first nation?
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
11:30 a.m.
Spokesman, Jackhead Fisheries
As far as we're talking about here, there is no safe harbour where we come from. We're in a very critical stage here.
Also, in 2005, there were high waters here in Lake Winnipeg that totally took our wharves away and took our harbours away.
11:30 a.m.
Spokesman, Jackhead Fisheries
That we built ourselves, yes.
The other thing I wanted to mention is that this is my second time coming to give a presentation to the standing committee. The first one I went to was in Grand Rapids. I think that was in 1995 or 1996, and now I'm at this one here today. In Grand Rapids, it had to do with the FFMC again, of course, but nothing came of that.
On your question, about a year ago I was successful in trying to upgrade my harbour through what they call the EMO, the Emergency Measures Organization. They listened to my case and what my situation was. I had a 60-foot boat, but I had no harbour and no dock. What they did for me was give me some funding to a total amount of $55,000 to upgrade my harbour, but no funding for a dock. Today I still don't have a dock.
At the same time, I want to—
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
So you have the boat, but no dock.
I'll pass it to one of my other colleagues, Mr. Chair.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Whether they be aboriginal or non-aboriginal, we seem to be hearing a consistent point of view from fishermen that nobody is interested in competition with each other. What they're interested in is making sure every fisherman has reasonable access to harbour infrastructure in order to be able to prosecute a fishery while feeling safe in the process.
One of the things that probably tempers your point of view is the realization that there is a fixed pot of money within the small craft harbours budget, and if local managers were to use that fixed amount of money to do what's needed, in essence it would be taken from somebody else. Is it consistent that you are looking for more money to be put into the central and Arctic region pot to be able to deal with this?
Realistically, one of the things we're challenged by is trying to come up with a figure of how much is needed in the small craft harbours program nationally to solve this problem. We came to the conclusion in an interim report, which we tabled in the House of Commons in December 2007, that as much as a billion dollars would be required. We did so not really fully understanding exactly.... We knew we had a reasonable estimate of how much was required to fix up existing harbours, but one of the things we did not know—and still do not know to this day—is how many harbours are out there that need to be built but are not currently within the small craft harbours program, yet still are required for the good, safe conduct of the fisheries.
Would you or organizations in which you are members be able to assist this committee by supplying that information as to what additional harbours would be required, where they are, and potentially how much they may cost?
11:35 a.m.
Manager, Goodman's Landing
That's where I was going with my story, but I forgot. Just being around a lake and dealing in the province all over the place, I would say that the three main harbours—and this is just my opinion—are Goodman's Landing, number one; Frog Bay, because it's changing and they're getting more fishers there; and Lake Winnipegosis, where they're using an old barge right now.
But off Lake Winnipeg, there are tons of places that nobody remembers. You're talking about places like Pukatawagan, but there's nothing in Pukatawagan. Everybody in the north is trying to develop a fishery, as there's such high unemployment, and the fishery is the main thing. If they can get the freight cost down, which a lot of communities up north are doing, you're going to start having requests from up north. It's not like the south, where they have the big cities, the politicians, and this and that. They're not sure how to go about it.
You guys should be asking yourselves, hey, on that committee, we should not just have the people who have always been going to meetings, but have some more real people, some new input into what's happening in small craft harbours—and not for the big lakes. There are other lakes, like Lake Manitoba, Lake Winnipegosis, etc., that have all been ignored over the years. I'm not sure about the amount of dollars you're spending, but there are all the small lakes you could consider.
Fishing is the only thing that northern communities have—their major money is from fishing—and they can't develop it without help. I'm not saying that we...because everybody is building their own docks. Don't get me wrong: everybody is living with what they have. It's frustrating, because as you build, you keep putting the cost onto the fishermen for dredging, and for this and that. The community is steadily paying out, and we're asking ourselves, didn't they close down that dock over there, and didn't they decommission that one over there and the other one over there? Now you're saying that the lump sum of money is only for existing facilities, but if you decommissioned this one, shouldn't we be right there? You closed one location because nobody was using that facility. That's only right. But now, because our facility is being utilized even more, we feel we should get....
So there is a whole bunch of issues, and if there's anything I can do on a future committee or something, I would really be willing to put in an effort there.