Evidence of meeting #25 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was countries.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Claire Dansereau  Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Loyola Sullivan  Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Gilles Gauthier  Director General, Multilateral Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Noon

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

You're referring to my slippery slope remark. The slippery slope is allowing for special interest groups to dictate what we can and can't do in our own countries, and other countries trying to dictate what Canada can do when it comes to a perfectly legal profession that seal hunters carry out and the impact it could have on other wild hunts. Comments have been made by the same special interest group that is involved in this issue that they are against hunting of all wildlife. That's what I referred to as the slippery slope.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

The last question is on tradition. This hunt has been a tradition for hundreds and hundreds of years here. The Inuit are going to get an exemption on tradition, and the same methods are used in the hunt. It just seems asinine to me that they're taking this process when it is tradition in all of our communities, whether it be Newfoundland or wherever it happens to be. I just don't understand the logic.

Has there been any discussion on that weird logic?

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

The discussion has been that there is no logic to it. As I said earlier, we did take a sealer with us from Iqaluit to Prague, and he was very clear in his statement that as an Inuit seal hunter he was insulted by these actions.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much.

I know the minister has to leave. We'll take a....

Mr. Byrne.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Mr. Chair, I do believe the committee was afforded a gracious opportunity to have the minister here for an hour. We did indeed start late. Could I ask, through you, the minister if she could indeed afford the committee some extra time?

There are some really important issues that need to be dealt with. One, in particular, I'd really like to hear about is some level of commitment from the minister that she will indeed meet with stakeholders from eastern Canada--from Newfoundland and Labrador, from Nova Scotia, from P.E.I., from New Brunswick, and from Quebec--who've asked to meet with the minister on the fisheries crisis.

Through you, Mr. Chair, I'd ask the minister if she could indeed afford the full one hour that she did commit to us. That would be very helpful.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I appreciate that, Mr. Byrne. I was just looking at the time. We're about five minutes shy of that full hour, according to my watch, from when we started until this point in time. The minister did inform the committee that she was available for one hour. In the interest of fairness, five minutes does not allow for a full round of questioning around the table here this morning.

I was fairly generous in the amount of time afforded to each party as we went around the table with the minister this morning. Certainly it's entirely up to the minister, but with all due respect, Mr. Byrne, the minister did inform this committee that she would be here for one hour; we're fairly close to that one hour, and we've had the opportunity.

The officials will be here for the second hour for further rounds as we proceed throughout the committee.

Minister, would you like to comment?

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Gail Shea Conservative Egmont, PE

Yes, if I can just comment, I do have a meeting at 12:15 that I have to attend. I will be talking about the situation in Atlantic Canada, so I'm sure you can appreciate the importance of me being there.

I have said that, yes, I would meet with the stakeholders. I have been meeting with stakeholders since last November, at every opportunity that I have received, and will be meeting with my counterparts. If the member is concerned that this meeting won't happen, we'll do everything we can to make sure it does happen.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Minister.

We will take a short break while the minister leaves and then we'll resume questioning.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Would members please take their seats? We're ready to resume.

We're ready to begin the second round of questioning, and there will be five minutes allotted per party.

We will start off with Mr. Andrews.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Here are a couple of questions, one for the departmental official and one for the ambassador.

We all know politics and emotion run this debate throughout the world, and in particular in the EU. Leading up to this particular vote in Parliament, the animal rights groups upped the ante in a lot of their advertising campaign through different media outlets—newspapers, etc.

How much paid advertising did the department do in the weeks leading up to the vote?

12:15 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Claire Dansereau

We are currently putting all the numbers together, so we can provide you with that information at some point later. There will be paid advertisements, but there's also a significant amount of work that would need to be calculated as well, not simply what we would have paid for the ads. Many articles were written by our scientists, and presentations were made, so our work as a government is not necessarily.... We are not a lobby group, so we did some advertisement, but we did an awful lot of other types of work.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

I understand there are two types; there's the earned media you get, but to counteract some of this stuff, you need to put money and resources into paid advertising.

So did you do any at all?

12:20 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Claire Dansereau

Yes, we did. We targeted specifically the magazines that are read by parliamentarians, and we ensured that the ads were in at the time of critical votes. We were very strategic in utilizing the funds we had.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

So you're getting all that information for the committee?

12:20 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Okay.

This is a question to the ambassador. He explained to us that we shouldn't have focused on the Parliament vote—or not “focused on”, but that it wasn't as important as this other vote, for which we had, I think you said, up until the beginning of this year enough blocking votes on that body. Was it this year?

If we had them until a certain point, what happened? Why did we lose them? I'm just trying to get my head around the issue you brought up a little earlier.

12:20 p.m.

Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Loyola Sullivan

Sure.

Mr. Chairman, what I indicated is not that we shouldn't focus on Parliament only...we still focused on Parliament, and we carried out active engagement there with a whole host of meetings. But Parliament made up their mind and voted, basically signed the declaration of 2006 and said to the bureaucrats, “We've made up our minds; give us the legislation.” They only wanted the legislation to approve it. They had already gone so far down the road that, as one guy said in meetings, “You needed to be here before 2006.”

We saw that. When I got involved in this file in March 2007, about six months after the declaration, we had to look at whom to focus on and where to go. We saw there was going to be a tough slog with parliamentarians. They're up for re-election; they're driven by these groups. We had to look at how we could stop this process.

There were two avenues. One was via the commission that put forth the proposal on July 23, 2008. They had the power to pull it off the table if it was not satisfactory to them. Parliament went way beyond what they had put forward. They said there should be a derogation, based on their WTO, their opinions, and because Food Safety Authority experts said seals can be killed humanely. They didn't really like their moving that far on the proposal, but they didn't pull it off the table.

Why wouldn't the commission pull it off the table? They had the power to do it; it was unlikely, maybe because Parliament stamps the president of the commission—they have to approve the commissioners, and so on. There are ways to get back. If they disregarded the advice of Parliament, there are avenues by which they can get back at the commission.

And the third group is the council, the group I referenced with those numbers. All of those countries have 345 votes. You need 255, what's called a “qualified majority”, for them to approve it. Three things constitute that qualified majority: they must have 14 out of 27 countries supporting it; the countries supporting it must represent 62% of the population of the European Union; and they must have 255 votes.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

You said we had enough of those votes to block that?

12:20 p.m.

Ambassador, Office of the Ambassador for Fisheries Conservation, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Loyola Sullivan

No. What I said is that up until February...they go into their own private meetings, just like a cabinet. They go into their private meetings, the 27 countries in a working group, and they meet behind closed doors. There's no public record of what goes on, except what we hear from various sources. But we do know that after it met a number of times, the working group said, “We cannot get an agreement. We can't get the numbers we want”. So they basically passed it on to the next highest level, the highest level of those countries in Europe, at the COREPER level. That's their council of permanent representatives there, generally represented by an ambassador. They then meet, and they met on this issue, and they tried to get an agreement among themselves, the 27 countries.

From the unofficial reports we get on these meetings, as there is no official public reporting on what goes on behind closed doors, we knew they had problems getting this total. We do know there are a significant number of countries, enough to block it; and it's estimated by our count they didn't have 128 votes, and they can only afford to lose 90.

In March, and as it went on into April, they came together, and there were tremendous pressures to support it. You have the Nordic countries who are against the ban. You have some others against it. We went to every one of these and spoke to them, from the deputy prime minister to the minister, and said, there are no grounds to advance this; lobby hard on this.

But when it came to the final push, what lost it? When it came to the final push, in my view, what lost it was the tremendous pressure exerted by the European public. In Germany, while their departments of economics and justice, and others, might tell you it might be contrary to EU law, the elements in Germany driving this issue—the public—and the public driving it in Italy, France, and the U.K., drove those governments to make the decision that Europeans wanted, based on their desire to do it, while forgetting the legal arguments. They forgot the principal legal arguments on sustainability, and they made a political decision then, and a few fell off the fence, because the countries there would say, “It's an issue that means nothing to us, as we don't have seals. Basically, if there's a hill to die on, it's going to be over our own issue, not over somebody else's, like Canada's.”

That, in my view, is where it fell down at the eleventh hour from tremendous pressure.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Mr. Sullivan.

Monsieur Lévesque.

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Dansereau, gentlemen, thank you for being here with us.

Given the decision and the way in which things went, I believe it would be very difficult to get the European Union to change its position. If we challenge the decision at the WTO, how much time will it take before we get a final outcome?

12:25 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Claire Dansereau

Thank you,

With regard to WTO issues, we have here an expert who will be able to provide you with a much more detailed answer than mine would be. I do however know that these processes are very lengthy at the WTO. This could take years.

It is clear that we will have to continue working in order to find new markets. Everything is dependent upon the final text and interpretation of the clause and the directive. I will let the expert, Mr. Gauthier, answer your question.

12:25 p.m.

Director General, Multilateral Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Gilles Gauthier

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The first process involves a special group. Indeed, once the measure has been officially adopted, a special group or panel will be established. Six to nine months will pass before an initial decision is made. The parties to the dispute will then be able to appeal the decision before the Appellate Body.

The rendering of a decision might take between six to nine months. This is a final decision. Then comes an implementation period. Depending upon the result, countries may ask for up to one or two years to implement the Appellate Body's recommendations.

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

In other words...

12:25 p.m.

Director General, Multilateral Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Gilles Gauthier

You can easily count on two years.