Fisheries Committee on May 12th, 2009

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

In other words, the Europeans seem to have been inspired by the Americans' behaviour during the softwood lumber crisis.

Is the Department considering measures to facilitate the development of the domestic market for seal products?

[Claire Dansereau]

It is going to be very important to work in concert with the industry. To date, however, the industry has given us no indications of what it plans on doing in terms of market development. Our role, that of the Department and of the government, is to do all we can to ensure that the doors are open in this regard. It is not up to us to develop the market ourselves.

The people in the industry must do this work, but if they suggest ideas to us, we will most certainly work with them in this area. Whatever the case, I cannot answer, given that the industry people have never put questions to me on this. Obviously, we devoted all of our attention to the European Union and to the need to keep the market open.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Could your department propose to the government that it use seal products in the context of certain activities? A small gift, for example a hat similar to the one Mr. Blais is wearing, might be presented to a foreign official, prime minister or minister who is here on a visit.

[Claire Dansereau]

We did not explore that idea.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

If I have any time left, I would like to give it to Raynald.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Sullivan, I hope you will not be upset at my not putting any questions to you. We have but 60 seconds left.

Ms. Dansereau, are you aware of the death threats that some sealers received as well as of the threats that even targeted some European parliamentarians? I do not know if the latter were death threats, but they were threatened with not being reelected on June 4.

Are you aware of the tactics of our adversaries, the abolitionists, with regard to these threats?

[Claire Dansereau]

I have no information whatsoever with regard to death threats. As for the rest, we take all of this very seriously. I am aware that some parliamentarians received or believe they received threats with regard to their reelection. That is clear. It was a very open campaign. As for criminal threats, I have no information in that regard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you.

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just as a little sidebar here, the other day Minister Ritz, the Minister of Agriculture, along with the pork producers had a pork day on the Hill—I thought it was extremely successful—because of the concerns about the H1N1 virus. They basically wanted to say that pork was healthy, tasty, and was very good. The problem was that they ran out.

In order to promote the lobster industry within Canada.... I asked a lot of people when the last time was that they had bought a lobster, and they don't. I just throw this out as a sidebar before I get into my question on seals: have you thought of maybe buying 2,000 lobsters from the riding of Sackville--Eastern Shore in Nova Scotia, arranging for all the lobsters and bringing them up? Cut them up and we could serve them to all those people on the Hill, just to say that maybe they could consider buying lobster in the future. That may just promote something on the Hill and promote to the city of Ottawa the quality of lobsters we have and show that it's a tasty item to choose. Maybe you could promote the industry in that way. I just leave that with you.

Here is my question for my colleague on the WTO side. We weren't successful in getting the United States to lift the ban on the Marine Mammal Protection Act, even though we negotiated trade deals with them—NAFTA, free trade, and everything else. My concern is, as the trade talks go on with the EU—and maybe this is a question more for Stockwell Day, but I want to reiterate the importance of this. My feeling is that we'll go along. The major industries, such as pharmaceuticals, forestry, agriculture, etc., want this deal with the EU. We have this little hindrance on seals...“Well, if we don't win it, no big deal.” That's about how I feel, that the government may end up being resigned to the fact that we didn't win the seal argument and we're going to proceed with these trade talks anyway.

In your experience, am I fearful over nothing, or am I correct in this? When I talked to some sealers out of Labrador the other day, they were very concerned about these EU talks and afraid that they may be left out of the equation altogether; that although Canada may pound its fists and say that what the EU has done is wrong, at the end of the day we're just blowing sand.

[Claire Dansereau]

As the minister said, the two issues are somewhat separate. Even in a perfect world, with a perfect free trade agreement, there will be disputes and disputes will continue. And the place to resolve the disputes is at the WTO.

The timing is a little bit strange that these things are happening at the same time, but it could have happened at any time and the result would have been the same.

The trade talks will continue. The trade talks are of benefit to Canada. This seal issue is one that we, as a department, focused a lot of our energy on, and we will take it wherever we have to take it to keep on fighting it. So we will not give up, as the minister said, nor will the government give up on its talks on the free trade agreement.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Have the EU ambassadors in Ottawa been called in to the Prime Minister's Office to explain their countries' actions?

[Loyola Sullivan]

I can't say if they were called in to the Prime Minister's Office, to be honest with you. But I do know an intervention was made through DFAIT. And I do know that in January I wrote every single one of the 27 representatives here in Ottawa, as well as Switzerland, which is outside the EU. I visited many of them and met with them, some on more than one occasion, over the past year, also on this issue.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you.

Mr. Kamp.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let me start with what I hope will be a brief answer from Ambassador Sullivan.

[Loyola Sullivan]

My last one was.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Yes, you're doing very well, I should say. Then I'll have a question for the deputy and/or Mr. Beaupré.

In your work, Ambassador Sullivan--and we appreciate the detail you've provided for us on all the meetings you've had, and especially as it led up to the final vote--did you notice any impact or effect that a Canadian parliamentarian who was working against the rest of us on this issue and was active on it publicly here in Canada, but we understand was also contacting European parliamentarians...? In fact, he put it in the form of wanting the European Parliament to do the work the Canadian Parliament should have done in terms of banning the seal hunt.

I hope he had no effect, but did you notice anything in the meetings you had and the people you talked to?

[Loyola Sullivan]

The senator came out a little late in the process. I heard, through my meetings in Europe over the past year, that the Canadian public doesn't support this and that animal rights groups have spread all that information anyway.

It hurts when anybody, particularly anybody of high profile, mentions it. They use that as ammunition. Did it impact the results? I've said that Parliament made up its mind three years ago, so I don't think you could say it would affect the parliamentarians because it was done with them. Did it affect the countries? I don't know. I can't tell you the impact that countries might have had on this process. I really think an accumulation of factors advanced this issue, and Parliament had been pushing to get it done and pushing those countries.

Everything contrary harms the situation, but to a degree. I wouldn't be able to objectively say it affected the final result. No, I don't think it would be fair for me to draw that conclusion.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Okay, thank you for that. I appreciate that.

It doesn't seem very long ago, Deputy and Mr. Beaupré, that we were really hoping and thinking we might end up with a situation where there would be a vote, but there would be some kind of derogation or exemption with a certification scheme, whereby products that came in from countries that could demonstrate that the hunt was done in a humane and sustainable way would be exempt from any import ban. It doesn't seem very long ago that this was our hope, that we would end up there. And we didn't end up there, obviously.

Can you tell us some of the process as it went on and why we didn't end up there?

[Claire Dansereau]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As we were saying a few months ago, we lived in hope, because we felt that with hard work we should always have hope. We also knew, though, that we had a very tough road to climb. I think I said when we had our in camera session that we had been warned we would not know the outcome of our hard work until the very last minute of the very last vote.

As you heard the ambassador say, positions changed. The world is very fluid, depending on a whole series of other interactions and exchanges that were happening between parliamentarians, exchanges and interactions over which Canada has absolutely no influence and in which it is not a player. People would be trading off the seal issue in order to get something else, so deals were struck that we know nothing about, that we're not party to.

I think I may say, and the minister has certainly said, that the election in June of all parliamentarians has had an impact on this. Had we been able to have a vote post-June, there might have been a different outcome.

I heard a few parliamentarians on the radio after the vote speaking about the very real political impact and the threats that were made to them about their political careers if they didn't take a certain position. It is because all of that was thrown into the mix, and because Canada is not a member of the EU and therefore had nothing really to trade at that point, I think, that we ended up where we are.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Mr. Byrne.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It was reported in the House of Commons by the minister of unemployment that an income support program was being developed and would be announced very soon for fishers who were affected by severe ice conditions on the northeast coast of Newfoundland, the Northern Peninsula, and Labrador in particular. The minister of unemployment said they were collaborating with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans on this program, and that the support of that department was vital to this.

I've raised the matter several times in the House of Commons, and the government itself has always said: talk to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans; they're the stumbling block here.

What can you report to us, Deputy Minister, about the status of those discussions between Service Canada or HRSDC and Fisheries and Oceans? Was the minister, when she made that commitment on behalf of the government, reporting correctly to Parliament what the circumstances were? And what's the role that Fisheries and Oceans can play?

But most importantly, to support our sealers—because that's who these fishermen are who are affected by these conditions—in getting some income support quickly, what can you tell us about that particular income support program?

[Claire Dansereau]

I know that we had an income support program two years ago because of unusual circumstances. I know we verify ice conditions every day, and so far I can say that the ice conditions are not having a negative impact on fishers, so the ice is not a factor.

I definitely cannot speak on behalf of the minister and what she may or may not have said in the House of Commons. Where those discussions would be warranted, we will have them, but so far, the ice conditions do not warrant our having those discussions.

When we did have such a program, in 2007, the conditions were very different.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

We need to be very clear about this. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans, which was reported by the minister of unemployment as having a central role in this particular income support program.... You're indicating that there is no problem of ice on the northeast coast and there are no discussions taking place between HRSDC and Fisheries and Oceans anymore on this, because you have said you do not support an income support program—or at least you said there is no problem to resolve and therefore there is nothing for us to talk about.

[Claire Dansereau]

I am told at the moment that there is a price issue, but not an ice issue.