Fisheries Committee on Oct. 29th, 2009

[Michaela Huard]

I'll ask Mrs. Leduc to explain the situation to you. The percentage is more or less the same, but where the numbers differ is...

the condition of the facilities versus the condition of the actual wharves and harbours.

Micheline.

[Micheline Leduc, Director General, Small Craft Harbour, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

The figure of 28% quoted by Mr. Bergeron referred to the performance rating of the harbour. I believe that's what it is called. It takes into account two factors: the harbour's functionality and the condition of each separate infrastructure.

By functionality, I am referring to whether or not the harbour is deep enough, whether it affords crafts adequate protection and whether it has a sufficient number of berths. This indicator takes into account the functionality and condition of each separate infrastructure.

Today, 28% of ports still have a poor rating and ..

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

...and are considered unsafe.

[Micheline Leduc]

And are considered unsafe.

As Mrs. Huard was saying, the condition of our facilities was rated at 19%. Today, according to reports, nearly 16% of our individual facilities are rated dangerous or unsafe. The overall situation has improved a little.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Figures are just figures. It comes down to a question of appreciation and interpretation. However, conditions are worse at some ports than they are at others and the truth of the situation is there for all to see. When the committee visited a number of ports, it saw firsthand these varying conditions. Unfortunately, there are some horror stories and cases where the safety of port users is in danger.

At some point, we heard some numbers corresponding to the sum of money that would be needed to repair small craft harbours. The last official figure I saw, during questions and answers, was about $600 million. If I'm not mistaken, that was in 2007 when the program was being analysed.

Can you update the numbers for me? If you can't do that today, perhaps you could send the information to the committee later. I think it's important to have some idea of the amount of money needed.

[Michaela Huard]

If memory serves me well, I believe the figure was more in the order of $500 million.

What's the source of the $600 million? My understanding was that it was $500 million.

It's hard to compare, if I might say. With the passage of time, the $200 million in the economic action plan will make a big difference. The fact that we're going to divest further harbours and have more money to divest we think will reduce some of the pressures on it. There's also inflation.

I don't have an updated figure to tell you, because—

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Could you possibly give us some numbers? It would be important to have the most accurate figure possible as we prepare to table our report. The only figures that we have at this time were the ones announced to us in 2005 and 2007. This is 2009, and 2010 is almost upon us.

[Michaela Huard]

I really can't overstate enough how much we have been putting all of our efforts into the projects under the economic action plan. I don't have that number and it would take some work for us to develop that number.

It's something that we recognize is important to the committee. You have taken great interest in what would be required, but I would also caution that the number.... We are talking about facilities that have a life of 20 or 30 years, so that number, as I understand it, when I looked into it—which I did because I am relatively new to the program—was based on all of the things that would need to done this year, the next year, five years, and ten years down the road. So I'm a little hesitant about saying with any precision what that number would be. But it is—

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

If we were able to get some figures in 2006 and 2007, surely we can get up-to-date numbers today.

Moreover, I would just like to point out that where this matter is concerned, the figures are very relative. You have to look at how storms can impact the infrastructure in question. For example, if you don't fix a leaky roof, that roof could collapse. Many of the facilities are in danger of collapsing and the solution, unfortunately, has been to erect safety fences. We are seeing more and more such fences.

Of course, I could always inquire as to the number of safety fences erected in 2009 and that would give us some idea of the situation today. However, I'm interested in the figures given to us in 2005 and again in 2007. An evaluation needs to be done. It needs to be done on a day to day basis, because the situation can change. I think it's important for your department to update us on the estimated cost of the repair work.

The Chair has been generous enough to give you a few additional minutes to respond.

[Micheline Leduc]

The $500 million seems quite fair. You have to understand that this is a maximum amount needed to bring all of our infrastructures up to speed. Furthermore, our immediate needs cannot be overlooked. The $200 million would address our more immediate needs.

Earlier, we heard how nearly one third of facilities would benefit from the budget. However, even though $500 million seems like a big number, we recognize that this is more than what we need at this time to turn the situation around. This estimate is based on long-term requirements and fluctuates according to needs and the changing situation within the fishery.

We also cannot say exactly how many fences were erected over the past year. Obviously, fences are erected as a last resort. However, some have been put up, including one at Baie St. Georges. That said, rarely does the situation degenerate to the point of our having to erect a fence, because we must be diligent and assume our responsibilities. Generally speaking, fences are erected at ports that are not deemed essential. Consequently, they arouse fewer emotions. The fact remains, however, that load restrictions are applied and we realize that this doesn't help the situation either.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a few questions for you—and I want to thank François, the researcher, for those questions.

A few years back, Mr. Hearn, the minister, made an announcement regarding the seven small craft harbours for Nunavut. What is the status of those harbours now, and what is the status of the commercial harbour in Pangnirtung?

[Michaela Huard]

I think I mentioned in my statement, and I won't take the time to repeat, regarding the money that was assigned to Pangnirtung, Pangnirtung is the first of the harbours that the study had recommended. There has been quite a bit of work done to advance that project this year. We have let a contract with the Municipality of Pangnirtung to start the first phase of the work, which includes some inner harbour dredging, some floats, a breakwater, and I'm missing the fourth component. But there is work in that first construction contract that has been let.

We've determined that in order to construct the breakwater we have to bring some material from a quarry in the town across to the harbour location. So we've had a contribution agreement signed with the town to allow work to proceed with repairing the road and bridge that are needed to get to the site. The work on that started this past Monday. It's getting cold. It's starting to freeze up there, but the work is progressing so that we're in a good position next construction season to start. The equipment has been pre-positioned by sealift. These are all extra elements that have to be taken into account in such a project.

So work is under way. The bulk of it will be over the next two years, but I can actually say that things started as of Monday.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

That's the one harbour. What about the other six?

[Michaela Huard]

We have money announced for Pangnirtung. There have not been decisions with respect to future harbours. We have been talking and continue to talk to Nunavut about its priorities for the other six.

To be very honest, this is new for us, to be building a harbour in the Arctic. There are new elements around it. We're testing, for instance, design options: Should it be this type of wharf or another type of wharf? I think there will be some lessons learned in that, so we don't have immediate plans to jump into--

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Obviously this isn't a question directly for you, but I can only assume that a minister of the crown would announce seven harbours and allocate x number of dollars based on research, based on advice, based on all kinds of things. I don't think he just wakes up one morning and says “Seven harbours and $46 million”. He must have some facts to back it up.

After that announcement, I went up there and I guess there was a jaundiced view about seven harbours being done.

I'm glad to see that the Pangnirtung work is being done, but it's rather disappointing, I guess, for the people of Nunavut that the other six are still in an exploratory stage in that regard. But that's just a comment.

When we were out in Prince Rupert a few years ago, some of the small craft harbours had problems with derelict vessels, people who had vessels parked at a harbour and then just walked away. They were talking about there being some legal problems in getting rid of those vessels.

Obviously you might be aware of the situation. What is the department able to do to assist these small craft harbours in removing these derelict vessels?

[Michaela Huard]

The harbour authorities have raised the issue of derelict vessels. There are a number of issues that are common to harbour authorities right across the country. If I were to think of the top three, one of them would be derelict vessels. We have been working with them. I don't know if Micheline has more detail, but we have been working with them to see if there are ways we can help them deal with the issue. It is a recurring problem, which we are aware of.

[Micheline Leduc]

It appears to be more of a problem in the Pacific. As a matter of fact, the Harbour Authority Association of British Columbia has taken the lead to work with us to look at solutions. As Madam Huard was saying, it is one of the issues we continue to work on from a national perspective that, if we resolve it, will help the viability of harbour authorities.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Lawrence MacAulay]

We'll go to Mr. Allen.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today.

You indicated that there's $200 million. To the point that funding is going so quickly, you've asked to draw forward the $20 million from next year into this year's budget. Considering the time of year we're in, I would suspect, and I just want clarification, that most of those dollars being pulled forward would be mostly for engineering and planning as opposed to actual construction.

[Michaela Huard]

I'll let Micheline reflect on which it is. We identified this really quite early.

There are pros and cons to having lots of work to do. Our regions are very well placed to say that they have this work and all these projects. They actually came to us very early, in June, and told us that they could do even more. So we asked for that approval quite early.

There are a number of projects that we want to be able to have ready to go next year. I expect that a lot of it is in that area, but I don't know that the majority of it would be.

[Micheline Leduc]

Actually, the construction market is responding very positively. I wouldn't be able to give you the breakdown of the $20 million that goes towards engineering versus construction, but I would think that a good portion of it goes towards construction. We were out there early with the tendering process, which led to getting contracts in place early in the game. I would suspect that a lot of the $20 million is going towards accelerating the pace of the construction work.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

You might not have those numbers today, but are they available?

[Micheline Leduc]

We have the distribution of the $20 million and how it applies to the different regions. I could say that our Atlantic region--the Maritimes and the gulf and Newfoundland--is where the bulk of the $20 million is being advanced, because there has been more readiness to take on more money.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

One of the frustrations we heard during testimony, when we were going around, was with respect to the long lead time to get some of this stuff approved. It sounds to me as if you must have found a way to get lead-time approvals and have gotten a little bit better at that. Have you done things with respect to sign-off levels? What else have you done to speed this up? In the future, could we benefit from new processes that have actually made this process faster?