Evidence of meeting #16 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was facility.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
4:15 p.m.
Chief, 'Namgis First Nation
It's from the feces and all the other things that flow through the open nets.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Mr. Hobson, we've heard a lot at this committee...over the last year or two about sea lice and their effects on salmon. We've seen pictures of what sea lice have done to the smolts and the wild fishery.
I'd like you to tell us whether you feel the open net concept is in the wrong place. Are there too many of them? Could they be shifted to another area?
This is a big industry, and obviously there are some problems, because there's a lot of money being invested in the closed containment. Can there be more and better regulations in order to make sure that we can have the open net concept and the closed containment, or are we heading away from the open net concept altogether because of the effect it has on nature itself?
4:20 p.m.
President, SOS Marine Conservation Foundation
I think if you look at the industry as a whole and the sites that have been developed, there are about 120 farm sites in British Columbia, and about 90 of them are active at any one time. Some have been abandoned completely because they found they had too many problems trying to raise their fish in the open net-pens.
If you look at the locations of those 120 farm sites on the map, you'll see that they're all...I call it “tucked in out of the weather”, in areas where there's a lot of tidal flush to flush the waste away.
Those areas have pretty well all been used up, in my estimation. We have an industry that I think is maxed out in B.C. They produce about 80,000 tonnes per year. The farms are poorly located in a lot of cases, and a lot of that is just historical. Those farm sites were licensed 20 years ago, and they have continued to this time. They were poorly sited from the beginning, as Chief Cranmer has indicated.
They expanded the sites by adding more and more net-pens to them, to the point where the density of fish in a location is enormous. These are some of the largest floating net-cage farms in the world in British Columbia.
This deadly combination of density and siting right on or near smolt out-migration routes is really the problem. I mean, we can start band-aiding the problem, but I don't think it's going to work. We need to move wholesale to closed containment if we're going to have a sustainable aquaculture business.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
I think you'll have some opposition to that, but with what's taking place, and the investment, even by DFO, in closed containment, it's certainly obvious that in this country...and I feel we should be, as in Chile; they are also investing in closed containment facilities. It would seem to me that the move is to closed containment facilities.
Do you believe we can put proper regulations in place, or do you believe that the open net concept will eventually be over? You look at what's taking place with the smolts when they out-migrate and have lice. You look at what's going on with the clam beds and that type of thing. Of course there was a great downturn in the return a couple of years ago. Last year there was a good return.
Where do you see this going?
4:20 p.m.
President, SOS Marine Conservation Foundation
There are certainly better regulations you can have on the open net cages. You can lower the mortality and the impact on the environment. I don't think you can have an significant effect on that long term.
Of course, while all that is going on you not only have the lice problem; you have the pathogen problem as these things become incubators for viruses and bacteria, which are also starting to negatively impact the marine environment.
As I said, it's a band-aid at best. The industry is already too big. It has to get smaller. You can't regulate it while you have a transition to closed containment. I think that's a realistic proposition. But in terms of having a long-term business as an open net-pen industry, I don't think it's viable.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Do you also feel, sir, that if there were more regulations put on the open net concept, the cost factor would increase for the end product in the open net concept, which would make the closed containment...? I expect you'll agree with my suggestion that it would bring the prices closer together.
4:25 p.m.
President, SOS Marine Conservation Foundation
Well, that's right. That levels the playing field.
On the one hand, most facilities are subjected to some kind of a licensing fee, which compensates the local stakeholders and the owners—and the general public—for damage done to the environment, but in the open net-cage business, that's not the case.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston
Thank you very much.
I will move to a five-minute round with Mr. Cleary leading off.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you to the chief and Mr. Hobson for appearing before the committee.
My riding is in Newfoundland, and we have a first nation in southern Newfoundland in Conne River, the Conne River first nation. They have a small food fishery, a subsistence salmon fishery, but the returns are too low for any kind of commercial fishery. There once was a commercial fishery, but not anymore.
Surrounding the Conne River first nation are nine open net aquaculture sites, which have had a documented impact on the wild salmon returns in Conne River. I'm sure the people of Conne River would be interested in your closed containment technology.
To start off, I just have two quick questions. Would the eventual results of this project be available to other first nations across Canada? The other question is a bit broader. What were the main challenges to getting this particular project off the ground?
4:25 p.m.
President, SOS Marine Conservation Foundation
Do you want to answer the first one, about the information?
4:25 p.m.
Chief, 'Namgis First Nation
Yes.
I'm sure we'll be only too willing to share the information with first nations right across Canada. It might be of interest. We had a proposal from a Japanese firm that wanted to come in and test this kind of technology, but they wanted to keep the information to themselves. We said no, we wouldn't agree to that. And they were going to pay for the whole shot.
This project here is right from the start going to share information with other first nations and anybody else who's interested.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
This committee has been told that the main challenges to getting a closed containment facility off the ground are the initial capital costs and the costs of the hydro. I see from some of the documentation here that your first nation is involved in a $200-million hydro project. Is that where the power for this project will come from?
4:25 p.m.
Chief, 'Namgis First Nation
No, it isn't. Our run-of-the-river project will sell the power to B.C. hydro. It will just go on their grid, and it's theirs.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
Can you talk about some of the other challenges? I see that you have a lot of funding partners. Would one of the main challenges have been to line up the funding for the $7-million project?
4:25 p.m.
President, SOS Marine Conservation Foundation
That has certainly been a challenge, there's no question. There are endless months of applications, and the criteria are different. What you can spend the money on is different. It's quite an exercise in trying to keep the cashflows lined up with the project needs. Having one source of funds where all the agencies input, and where they all then would have the same reporting criteria, would be an enormous step forward and would make this exercise a lot easier.
The salmon aquaculture innovation fund, which was established by Tides Canada, was designed to do exactly that, but none of the federal or funding groups have changed their requirements, so everything's being done one-on-one.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
Is there anything more the federal government can do to get similar projects off the ground? For one of the challenges you just mentioned, how about a one-stop shop where you go for all your funding applications? Would that sort of thing help?
4:30 p.m.
President, SOS Marine Conservation Foundation
That would help immensely--absolutely.
You can still apply some very stringent criteria and you'll get consistency as well. Once we have this pilot established, as Chief Cranmer said, we're going to provide the information for no cost, through workshops and through maybe licensing agreements—where the licence fee will be a dollar—to anybody who wants to take us up on the offer. It will basically be a template on how you build these things and how you operate them to get the maximum economic efficiency out of the machine.
If an investment group wants to take that free information, which normally would cost them a lot of money to procure, and they want to line up private investors, that would be one avenue. If they can't for some reason line up private money, or they don't have access to it, you could have a second fund provided by government or a philanthropic organization like Tides, which could basically ensure the money was spent and the governance was in place.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Thanks very much, Mr. Chairman.
Thanks very much, gentlemen, for being with us this afternoon. Certainly we've enjoyed hearing your story of your project. I was quite taken with the number of partners you've entered into with this project. That's probably been part of your success with it, I would expect, so perhaps you'd like to comment on that.
Chief Cranmer, one of the things you said in your presentation was that you experienced first-hand the consequences of how industry is regulated in terms of the siting of the farms and the densities allowed. You see how open net-pen farming practise continues to have a negative impact on the wild salmon and clam beds.
You talked a little bit to my colleague opposite about the clam beds, but perhaps you could tell us a little bit more about what you have seen first-hand as negative impacts, and whether those have been scientifically documented, or whether they have followed other scientific or any scientific processes that you have experienced or researched in the past.
4:30 p.m.
Chief, 'Namgis First Nation
The Broughton Archipelago is right in our neighbourhood. It's in our backdoor you might say. We've been part of the people who have come in to catch the salmon fry to test about sea lice. We've seen the returns to the local rivers that are way below what they should be. You can't get a better indication than that on the effects of these open net fish farms.
One of the things that hasn't even been talked about yet is the effect on herring. They've sited these farms right where the herring normally spawn. Of course, some of the herring spawn on the nets of the open net fish farms. We've been told that disease has killed off a lot of the herring. There hasn't been a herring fishery in our area for over 30 years, yet the herring continue to decline. We suspect it's because of these open net fish farms.
The herring go into the nets when they're little. They get stuck in the nets. I remember one time when one of our local fishermen was asked to go in and help with a huge die-off of Atlantic salmon; there were a lot of herring in that net-pen when they took the dead fish out. They also took a lot of herring out of that net-pen.
It's terrible what they're doing, and what they're allowed to do.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Going back to the question that my colleague had, are there regulations that can be put in place to regulate this in a manner that is satisfactory? Or are you saying that we shouldn't have any more open net fish farming?
4:35 p.m.
Chief, 'Namgis First Nation
Well, we said from the start that there shouldn't be any open nets. We haven't even talked about them shooting all the seals and sea lions that mistakenly go in and try to eat the fish. They've shot hundreds of those animals. There are existing regulations that should prevent that from happening, but they aren't being enforced.