Evidence of meeting #23 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nasco.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Guy Beaupré  Director General, Aquaculture Management Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
James Smith  Director, Certification and Sustainability Policy, Aquaculture Management Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Jay Parsons  Director, Aquaculture Science Branch, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Alistair Struthers  Team Leader, Innovation, Aquaculture Management Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I call this meeting to order. I would like to welcome members back to the committee for the first time in the new year.

I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome our guests this afternoon and to thank them for taking the time to come and speak to the committee.

Mr. Beaupré, I believe you're going to lead. I'll open the floor to you. I know you've been here many times, so I don't have to go through the procedures with you. Please proceed whenever you're ready. If you want to, please introduce your associates and proceed.

3:30 p.m.

Guy Beaupré Director General, Aquaculture Management Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you.

As you said, Mr. Chairman, I'm Guy Beaupré, and I'm the director general of aquaculture management in the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. It is a pleasure for us to appear before the committee today.

I will make my presentation in English, but do not hesitate to ask questions in French if you like.

I'd first like to introduce my colleagues. Mr. Jay Parsons is the director of the aquaculture science branch. Mr. James Smith is the director--

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Excuse me, Mr. Beaupré. We're just having a little difficulty with translation. One moment, please.

Thank you, Mr. Beaupré. Please proceed.

3:30 p.m.

Director General, Aquaculture Management Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Guy Beaupré

With me are Mr. James Smith, director of certification and sustainability policy in my group, the aquaculture management directorate. Mr. Alistair Struthers is acting director for aquaculture policy, also in my group. Alistair is replacing Monsieur Eric Gilbert, who unfortunately could not appear today.

We have provided you with a presentation. My intention was to go over the presentation, not necessarily page by page, but to provide you with an overview to leave more time for your questions afterwards. So I'll tell you which pages I'm referring to as I go along.

The first two slides provide an introduction. We're here at your request to provide a briefing on salmon aquaculture and how it is regulated in Canada as well as in a number of international jurisdictions with respect to regulatory requirements and the state of research and implementation of closed containment.

The committee is also seeking to understand better the activities of the North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organization, known as NASCO, in relation to salmon aquaculture. Specifically, the members would like to know how Canada and other member countries of NASCO are meeting their goals of minimizing the potential adverse impacts of aquaculture on wild Atlantic salmon stocks. It would also like an overview of the ad hoc review group on aquaculture introductions and transfers and transgenics, including the work of the ad hoc group, its conclusions and findings with respect to Canada's management of aquaculture as well as an understanding of how this is consistent with NASCO agreements.

We will pleased to provide the committee with this information.

On slide 3 we provide you with an outline of the presentation. The presentation provides you with regulatory measures in each of Canada, Norway, Scotland, Chile, and the United States. There's a table to compare these regulatory measures as well as regulatory-related research programs in each of the countries. There is also a recent review of the international regulatory and management environment for salmon aquaculture conducted under NASCO.

Of course, closed containment is an element addressed within each of the areas I've mentioned.

Slide 4 provides you with a bit of a general view of aquaculture in the world. Canada, Norway, Scotland, and Chile together account for about 98% of the world aquaculture salmon production, so almost all of it. Each country has established regulatory and research programs that align with their jurisdiction and legislative requirements and programming environments as well as any aquaculture and specific fisheries legislation.

Overall, however, each country is managing for a similar range of environmental matters, including protection of native salmon through protection from escapes and containment of genetic material, and also interactions with other wild stocks, disease, pests, pathogens and pest treatments, and of course habitat. Canada also manages for predator control and marine mammal interactions, and in British Columbia for noise and light interactions with the aquatic ecosystems.

On page 5 of the presentation is a table that tries to provide you with a summary of the main regulatory and management measures. These are the highlights, of course, and we have focused on the key themes of interest in aquaculture, which you will see in the left column, including sea lice, disease and parasite transmission, escapes, and so on. These are the elements for which we are comparing the regulatory and management measures in each of the countries.

Now, unless the committee wishes so, I don't intend to go through each of the columns, because there's quite a lot of information. Generally I would say that what comes out from the table is that all of the countries follow international codes, guidelines, and protocols that are common to us—for example, ISO 234 or FAO protocols. We all generally have the same overall goals in managing aquaculture. The differences would relate to particular environments in a particular country.

On slide 7, we wanted to provide these jurisdictional comparisons by major themes to give the committee some context that I hope will be helpful in understanding activities in Canada. I would note that in general, with respect to the major categories that are in the left column, with the exception of closed containment aquaculture, all of the jurisdictions have pretty well the same kinds of requirements in place from, as I said, the policy or regulatory point of view.

More specifically, for the environmental stressors like sea lice through introductions and transfers, each jurisdiction has established control measures of one type or another. With respect to habitat, each has some sort of survey, monitoring, assessment, and permitting scheme in place to allow the protection of habitat. For classification and zoning of areas, each jurisdiction has its own planning, siting, and management requirements. In Canada, of course, we work with provincial governments on this. Similarly, each area is engaged in various modes of research to help understand effects and exposure to environment...and also environment medication.

In fact, everything that NASCO is asking the countries we look at is in this particular table. As you can see in the table, there are no requirements for closed containment, but operational constraints are leading the industry to go in that direction. There are, as you know, a number of projects that we can come back to that are looking at closed containments. Of course, as the committee probably knows as well, in Canada, the United States, and Chile we use land-based aquaculture in our hatcheries.

Again looking at slide 7, while there is no requirement to use closed containment, each jurisdiction makes use of recirculating aquaculture systems for the purpose of hatcheries, as I just said. However, for larger grow-out operations, the picture is more varied and raises questions internationally about the economics of closed-containment systems. We'll come back to that later.

Certainly the challenges relate to, in our view, the economic viability of closed containment. It seems to be clear and compelling that in the two major international salmon aquaculture production jurisdictions, that's certainly the case.

In slide 8 we switch to a review of NASCO measures related to aquaculture. I should mention to the committee that although I was the head of the Canadian delegation at NASCO for the years 2002 to 2010, I am not the head of delegation any more. However, a lot of the issues are relevant to when I was the head of delegation.

NASCO was established to conserve, restore, enhance, and manage wild Atlantic salmon through international cooperation. The members are, in addition to Canada, Denmark, on behalf of Greenland and the Faeroe Islands; the European Union; Norway; the Russian Federation; and the United States. Iceland was for a long time part of NASCO, but three years ago they got out of NASCO for financial reasons, saying that they intended to come back at some point.

Of course aquaculture organizations have not been accredited to NASCO, but a salmon aquaculture industry liaison committee was established to provide an international forum for discussion of issues of mutual interest but also to make recommendations on aquaculture issues.

Also related to aquaculture and NASCO is the Williamsburg resolution, which is a resolution to help minimize the impacts of aquaculture introductions, transfers, and transgenics on wild salmon, using a precautionary approach.

Slide 9 talks about NASCO's focus area reports. The slide gives a little bit of history about what happens there. As you probably know, there is no commercial fishery for wild Atlantic salmon. NASCO focuses on coordinating research among the countries as well as providing guidelines on how to manage the stock, the habitat, or the potential impacts from aquaculture.

About three years ago members of NASCO decided to do these focus area reports. The idea was actually to try to bring together best practices or guidelines on how to manage wild salmon, how to manage habitat, and how to deal with the potential impacts of aquaculture. The council has yet to discuss what to do with all the focus area reports from the various countries. As I said, for habitat and for management, NASCO has produced guidelines. For the focus area reports on aquaculture, next steps have yet to be determined.

In our focus area reports—this is the purpose of slide 10—we have shown how aquaculture is managed in Canada, including the legislative, regulatory, and management aspects of how we work with the provinces. We have also shown how we are meeting our NASCO goals and commitments. Within the NASCO process, there were comments on this particular report from an ad hoc committee that included NGOs. Thirty-five ENGOs accredited in NASCO as well as members of the different countries are trying to bring together the common elements of these reports to understand how countries as a whole manage the potential impacts of aquaculture on wild salmon. This is the stage we are at right now. The next NASCO meeting I think is in the first week of June. I'm sure countries will continue to consider what the next steps are with regard to that particular report.

This concludes my presentation, Mr. Chairman. I would be glad to answer your questions.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, Mr. Beaupré.

For questioning, we will start with Mr. Kamp.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for appearing. I appreciate this helpful information.

Canada, Norway, Scotland, and Chile do almost all of the Atlantic salmon aquaculture. Is that correct? The United States also does a little bit or they dabble?

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Aquaculture Management Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Guy Beaupré

You said the United States?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC

Do the United States do much as well?

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Aquaculture Management Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Guy Beaupré

They do a much smaller proportion.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC

Are we the only country that has this combination of provincial and federal jurisdiction? That's my question, and then I guess you probably know where I'm going. I want to know what you think about the advisability—or necessity, perhaps—and pros and cons of an aquaculture act in Canada. I'm assuming these other jurisdictions, which aren't set up the way we are as a federation, would have some kind of national legislation that governs how aquaculture is done, whereas we have both provincial and federal jurisdiction.

It's a general question. How is that working? In your opinion, how does it compare with these other jurisdictions? In your opinion, would there be some value in an aquaculture act in Canada?

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Aquaculture Management Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Guy Beaupré

Thank you for your question.

I think, if I'm not mistaken, that in these other countries—Norway, Scotland, and Chile—they have aquaculture acts. Norway and Scotland certainly do, I'm pretty sure, but they also have different jurisdictions involved in the management of aquaculture.

I know that in Norway, for example, they have county jurisdictions and larger county jurisdictions that manage part of the rivers as well as the fjords. To a certain extent, it's comparable to the different jurisdictions we have here. We work with the provinces and sometimes also with municipalities in managing aquaculture.

I really can't tell you if it is that much more complex in these countries. I think it's fairly comparable in terms of the different levels and how they need to manage.

I'm not at liberty to say if an aquaculture act would simplify things or not. I think there is the view in the industry that an aquaculture act would be very important in bringing together a framework for management and also for the different regulations.

I don't know, Jamie, if there's something you can add....

3:50 p.m.

James Smith Director, Certification and Sustainability Policy, Aquaculture Management Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thanks, Guy.

As Guy said, all those other countries have national legislation that covers aquaculture specifically to some degree, whether it's through counties or municipalities or some sub-levels of government underneath that, which provide some level of complexity, as we have here in Canada. I know that the Canadian industry has looked at those jurisdictions and has concluded that those systems are perhaps more streamlined than our system.

I think that's the task in front of us right now: to take a closer look at it to see whether that really is the case and how it could work for the Canadian environment.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC

Yes, certainly we've had witnesses tell us that they think this is something the Government of Canada should be working on, and that caught our interest as the standing committee, of course, so I just wondered if you saw any significant pros or cons—either way—in moving in that direction.

Would anyone else care to weigh in?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Aquaculture Management Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Guy Beaupré

Right now, for example, we are dealing with regulations on fish pathogens and pest treatment. We are bringing together the four federal departments involved in dealing with that issue, as well as the regulations from the provinces, in the Atlantic provinces, in regard to how this all comes together. When we have that framework completed, it will provide how we manage in Canada without the aquaculture act per se. The aquaculture act would have to refer to some of this legislation anyway, so in the end what is important, I think, is to have a framework and a set of legislation presented in a way that is understandable and that allows proper management of the industry.

The complexity of those systems in Canada is not different from what it is in other countries. In Norway, for example, you have the Department of Fisheries, and the people who manage aquaculture are in the Department of Fisheries; however, at NASCO, the representatives from Norway are from their Ministry of the Environment. For Scotland, for example, when they come to NASCO, Scotland sits behind the representative from the EU, so they have to understand their own system and agree among themselves.

I think each country has a set of fairly complex regulations and legislation to deal with aquaculture. Probably other aspects would be complex as well, but certainly in aquaculture it doesn't seem to be easy in terms of the overall picture we have in each of the countries.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC

How much does it cost us, annually, to participate in NASCO?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Aquaculture Management Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Guy Beaupré

I think the membership is paid in pounds, and I think it's around £140,000 annually.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC

You said that its mission or mandate is to manage wild salmon, but you also said there are no commercial fisheries for wild salmon, so what's it managing besides aquaculture?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Aquaculture Management Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Guy Beaupré

There is currently no commercial fishery, but if the stock were to come back, there probably would be a commercial fishery.

NASCO is putting a lot of energy into understanding and promoting the science to understand what happens to salmon at sea. There is a major project to research what happens to salmon when they go to sea and a number of them don't come back. We are trying to understand why they don't come back, so the countries have provided their expertise as well as contributions—and industry, as well, has been contributing—to do the research at sea and understand the results, both from the perspective of the science as to where we are, but also as to what this means in terms of management.

NASCO also provides the various countries with, I would say, coordinated and agreed-upon views on management measures or precautionary approach measures to managing salmon as well as to improving habitat, which is particularly important in the case of salmon returns and in managing other potential negative impacts on salmon.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you.

Mr. Donnelly.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and welcome, Monsieur Beaupré, and your team.

I have a few questions to do with cuts and with sea lice. I wanted to start off with this. According to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, you sent a detailed reply to a question that I put forward on the order paper that cuts will affect the department's scientific capacity, and that includes the sustainable aquaculture program.

I understand there will be at least three scientists from the department that will be let go. The document also mentioned that there are 73 scientists in the program, along with 16 contract scientists. I'm wondering if any of the contract scientists will be let go, or if they're all being kept. Then also, how did DFO determine which scientists would be let go?

3:55 p.m.

Director General, Aquaculture Management Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Guy Beaupré

I'll ask our colleague from the science branch to answer the question.

3:55 p.m.

Dr. Jay Parsons Director, Aquaculture Science Branch, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

I'm not familiar with the exact response that you received. In the recent announced reductions for the department, there were some cuts to one of our main aquaculture science programs, the aquaculture collaborative research and development program, or ACRDP. The funding level for that program was cut in half, just approximately 50%, and ten full-time equivalent positions were lost across the country in that program.

The department has been taking various steps in terms of how to identify those particular cuts. Where there were vacant positions available in those program areas, they were certainly identified as the first areas that would be reduced. As well, if there were no vacant positions, the staff complement in that particular program area was examined in terms of whether there were any people available to...that would be affected in that particular program area. So in some cases, there were no options in terms of the availability of staff in that particular program in certain regions. Subsequently those staff have been identified.

I know that the department is also doing whatever steps it can to be able to identify opportunities, for those affected employees, for looking for other opportunities within the department or within the government.

As for your specific reference to “contract”, I'm not really sure, as I said, what information was provided to you or the particular context. Could I ask if you have a bit more information? Was it contract employees for a specific program or was it just generally that there are number of contract employees?

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

Yes: I believe it was to DFO, and I'm not sure if it was specific to the aquaculture program, per se, or the department in general.

3:55 p.m.

Director, Aquaculture Science Branch, Department of Fisheries and Oceans