Fisheries Committee on Feb. 15th, 2012

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, ladies, for your presentation here this afternoon. Certainly we've heard some interesting comments.

I'm sure you've probably been following some of the study we've been doing or seeing some of the testimony we have heard, and you know that we have heard a lot of different things about open net and closed containment, the viability of closed containment, the economic outlook about whether or not it is even viable to go that way, the energy costs, the land base that's required, and so on.

Taking those things I've just talked about into account—the extra energy costs, and the land base, and so on—do you see any way that open-net operations can be made more sustainable or more environmentally friendly?

[Brenda Patterson]

I'm not aware of any, no.

[Karen Crocker]

I would say no as well. I don't know.

From what we've been able to learn, based on what's gone on so far in the industry, there are certain things that are required in order for them to maintain healthy fish: pesticides, antibiotics. As it stands, there is no barrier between the farm and the open environment, so I don't know how you could say the open environment is protected from that, unless there is a barrier.

[Brenda Patterson]

I think the issue of costs is quite interesting. As was mentioned by the previous member of Parliament, there are a number of very successful land-based closed containment fish farms. In fact, right now, one in Nova Scotia is selling its fish around the world. It's another halibut operation. It certainly can be profitable. In fact, it's my understanding that Canada is developing some interesting new technology for closed space systems, which in fact a Norwegian company is looking at right now. A Norwegian traditionally open fin fish salmon culture industry is looking at it.

I guess the other issue around cost—and I'm not saying anything new, because I know you've heard this—has to do with the profit margin. For open fin fish aquaculture it is over 50%. Another number I'll throw back at you is the annual licence fee for a lobster fisherman, which is $1,800 in Nova Scotia. The company that in fact has 200 acres of St. Mary's Bay and a million salmon paid $1,000 for its lease—that's it. For one company it was $1,000. We have 21 lobster fishermen who have been displaced and they currently pay $1,800 a year for each licence.

I think that industry has some capacity to absorb costs.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

You talked about some different operations, and certainly we know there are closed containment systems, other than those for salmon, that are quite successful. There are also some pilot projects for salmon closed containment, and we've heard from those as well.

There is a difference between the types of fin fish, whether they're salmon or whether they are in fact different species of fish. You're saying it's mainly a compatibility issue, with open-net and other fishing operations such as lobster in the same area? Is it about compatibility, because of the perception of contaminants?

[Brenda Patterson]

I'm not sure about your question. Maybe you could phrase it differently.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Is open-net salmon fishing a viable business option in an area where it's on its own, where there is no lobster fishing or another type of fishing taking place? Is it a compatibility issue, or is it strictly that it's not a good way to be raising the salmon?

[Brenda Patterson]

I think both are probably correct. I think there are real problems with open fin fish aquaculture for salmon, in terms of its implications, as Karen has pointed out: the food, the antibiotics, the pesticides, the taking up of the area coastal property, and degradation that goes on around it. Also, there would be very few places around most of Nova Scotia—certainly Southwest Nova Scotia—where in fact traditional fisheries such as lobster would not be very seriously impacted by this.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I'm sorry, my time is up.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much, Ms. Davidson.

Ms. Doré Lefebvre.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the witnesses for their appearance today at the committee.

I apologize, I'm going to try to speak in English today. I am a francophone and I'm trying to practise my English. I will try today.

I understand your organization is concerned about changes in the responsibility of these regulations, as outlined in the August 2010 DFO document developing new federal regulations to guide fish pathogens and pest treatments in Canada. Can you explain to this committee what your concerns are with regard to these proposed changes?

[Karen Crocker]

Based on what we've seen happen, as I have referred to before regarding New Brunswick in 1995, and again in 2009-10, where we had lobster deaths because of exposure to pesticides related to the open-net aquaculture industry, there are concerns that if we had these changes to the regulations for the fish pathogens, these substances, these chemicals, like permethrin, which was responsible for the death of the lobsters back in 2010, could then even become allowed in Canada.

We're concerned because what we saw happen in New Brunswick was fishermen pulling up traps that were full of dead lobster.

What we also have a concern about is who is looking at what is potentially going to happen to our lobster larvae. That's the future biomass of our industry. We don't know of any sufficient studies that have been done to look at the implications of these types of chemicals going out into the environment and what that may do to these larvae.

Again, we come back to the perception. If these types of things are allowed to happen within the industry, and the industry is occurring in and around ecologically sensitive areas that have productive lobster fisheries, it's really hard to not be concerned about what the implications will be on how people perceive the product that you're harvesting from around those areas.

[Brenda Patterson]

I think one of the other concerns is that the changes to the regulations seem to in fact be a response to the desire on behalf of the aquaculture companies to have both easier and greater access to a plethora.... I forget what they actually call it—not more tools in the toolbox, or arsenal...I forget what it is. Essentially, the reality is it seems to in fact be a response to the aquaculture industry, because the realization is that the pesticides they are currently using aren't working. The lice and so on are in fact building up a resistance to the pesticides that are currently approved in Canada. They are basically saying, okay, what we really need is access to a greater range of pesticides and a freer access to those.

It doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me. What we are saying is if we want to go into mega-factory farming, and the company is going to make an incredible amount of money to do so, you and I are going to pay the price, because they just can't control the disease associated with those farms.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

What do the communities in your area think about the use of pesticides? What do they think about what happened in the Bay of Fundy?

[Karen Crocker]

It terrifies our fishermen. It terrifies our fishermen's family members. It's a real threat. They perceive it as a real threat to their industry.

[Brenda Patterson]

It's difficult to sit in a room with someone who's been fishing for 50 years and have them say, “How can someone do this?” They don't understand. They say, “How could this be done to us? They're destroying the last fishery we have. We have a healthy, natural, lobster fishery. They're putting that industry and they're putting us and our communities at risk. Who lets that happen?” That's what they say when they're sitting in a room. They just don't understand it—and it's not surprising.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Ms. Doré Lefebvre. I will say your English was very good.

Mr. Allen.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Her English is probably a lot better than my French would have been, I can tell you that.

Thank you, Karen and Brenda, for being here. I appreciate it.

I'd like to get some clarification on a couple of comments that were made.

Did you say that there were going to be only six jobs created? I want to make sure I understood. Was that going to be in St. Mary's Bay, the six jobs that were going to be created by aquaculture?

[Karen Crocker]

Initially, they had talked about 16 jobs, but to date we know of only six part-time jobs.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Part-time jobs?

[Karen Crocker]

Yes.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

What phase are they at right now?

[Karen Crocker]

Their leases are up and running.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Being from New Brunswick, I was a little surprised with the comments on the minimum wage. I know that the jobs supporting the aquaculture industry in New Brunswick have been a bit more than minimum wage jobs, and I don't think we've seen, necessarily, a decrease in the lobster jobs. It hasn't been one or the other. I wanted to get some clarity on that because it seems like both have been able to coexist in New Brunswick.

This is a challenge, from a policy standpoint and from the government's perspective, and I'll put it into context. Going forward, the world is going to be demanding a lot of fish. Our aquaculture industry is going to have to provide a fair amount of that. Given where we are today, with the current low prices of salmon and that type of thing, and given that closed containment has proven itself to be quite expensive to get up and running, we're facing a challenge, because in many rural coastal communities this involves a tremendous number of jobs. How should government respond?